Mixer for classical recording

[Roland]

At the risk of deviating off topic. There are quite a few summing buss boxes out there for relatively small money. These have little in the way of circuitry, so are likely to either have little audible effect on the sound, whihc may be (a) of little use, because you want the "effect" or (b) exactly what you want, because you are trying to alter the signal as little as possible. Either way, you are hoing to have to contend with a further AD/DA conversion, that is likely to have a much more audible effect on the result.

Going the way that Mark was mentioning with something like a Studer, does have the benefit of being able to use it for tracking as well, something that may work for you.

Just to avoid confusion, I am firmly in the camp that analogue summing is IMHO pure "snake oil", however, YMMV.

Regards


Roland

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Roland

Just to avoid confusion, I am firmly in the camp that analogue summing is IMHO pure "snake oil", however, YMMV.
Regards
Roland

Thank you! We need more comments like that to help keep the price of the snake oil down.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Plush]

Here I use SADiE to edit but not to mix. I simply find it easier to use real faders and a real tube/heavy transformers/ISA110/more tube treatment chain. So I hardly can agree that mixing outside the computer is "snake oil." It's a matter of practicality and
a method to arrive at an "in the mind heard" sound.

A computer is a very harsh environment for audio.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Plush

Here I use SADiE to edit but not to mix. I simply find it easier to use real faders and a real tube/heavy transformers/ISA110/more tube treatment chain. So I hardly can agree that mixing outside the computer is "snake oil." It's a matter of practicality and
a method to arrive at an "in the mind heard" sound.

A computer is a very harsh environment for audio.

Agreed.

This does remind me of a SADiE story - and bear in mind that the SADiE is probably the most bullet-proof of all DAWs - a recordist had set everything up for recording a major concert - everything set up perfectly, fully working and tested, perfect - he then went off for a quick cuppa / nature break before the concert. - On his return the PC had decided to do "chkdisk" - he *had* to wait about 45 minutes for the PC to complete this as there is absolutely no way of stopping it. Luckily he managed to start recording with just seconds to spare.

And one of the reasons I don't like to record on PC (or Mac) and why I use a Nagra VI for recording and a DAW (Sequoia in my case) only for editing and mastering.

[Marlan]

A post that interests me a great deal. For years I wanted that magic little mixer that would give me the sound of a PHAT vintage console.

There aren't many things out there that do what you want. The 8816 is pretty darn cool but it's not going to be anything like the real thing.

I loved my Delta console back in 1993 but I'm not going to lug it around if I'm in a great hall with awesome players and a bag full of Schoeps, Neumanns, and DPA's feeding great pre's like Millennia's and DAV's.

My business partner was lucky enough to get a great deal on a vintage 70's Neve broadcast console and had it re-capped and overhauled by the guy's at purple audio.

It's great for certain things but doesn't fit all of my remixing situations. What am I getting at you ask???????

There are some other cool options out there that I would consider as well.

Reserve huge mixing projects for high end studios that will let you mix there off hours for a discounted rate while you save. Everyone is lowering and restructuring their rate cards in this economy. A lot of $2000 per day studios will give you a 10 hour block at $600 these days on their Neve's and SSL's.

A.The SSL X-Desk super analogue console
A great little mixer and summing mixer that really sounds "off the wall" (I love you Michael!!!!!) You can add outboard "500" series type SSL products that can be used in tandem as the years go by and you save some dough.

B. Think about staying in the box for the time being. Getting the Euphonix MC MIX and Maybe some good analog tape emulation like the Cranesong HEDD, Phoenix plugin's or even the Neve tape emulator

I absolutely love the Cranesong HEDD analog tape emulation knobs. They sound AMAZING!!! and I use them all the time even on the most pristine classical stuff.

These are just some thoughts mind you. Good Luck.

[Plush]

Oh snore. . .

This is one time I cannot go along with the esteemed Marlan.

I checked out the new SSL X desk ( the first one in the USA) and I dumped on it and thought it was not even built as well as a Mackie. I listened to it too and it fell down. The AMS-Neve 8816 is a real sound and it is not supposed to imitate a vintage Neve console since it is using some of the same building blocks as the currently made 88R Neve flagship. This was told to me by the main
Austrian NEVEMAN.

Anyway some computer summers sound good and some do not sound good.

Since you have decided to buy a Studer, then you can't go wrong.

All others on the fence who choose a cheapie way out will perish with poor sound.
(or at least you'll wonder why your sound does not have a polished sound) Of course it could be that you're just a poor recordiste!

Suggestion:--) Set up a 100 person choir in your bedroom or basement and then add reverb to the recorded sound. Then go on GS to ask what's the best reverb for a choral sound offered up in a basement. You'll get some good advice and the cycle will begin all ovah again.

Then, after you have done the work, Rejoice Briefly at the Malcolm X Pizzeria in Brooklyn. Toast Wacko Jacko and moan that the pizza meat (strictly Halal and blessed by a pimp) is past it's prime. These meditations have at least been worthwhile for me.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Plush

Suggestion:--) Set up a 100 person choir in your bedroom or basement and then add reverb to the recorded sound. Then go on GS to ask what's the best reverb for a choral sound offered up in a basement. You'll get some good advice and the cycle will begin all ovah again.

Don't forget to record it in mono!

[Marlan]

I'm esteemed??????

[Legacy]

Hey Marlan!
I think that was 'esteamed' which is sort of like half-baked but without the crust (sorry-couldn't resist)
You are esteemed in my book.
I hope all is well,
Silas

[Marlan]

I'm just playin. Everything is great. I hope the same goes for you as well. I'm going to pm you this week about a session you might want to assist on.

Good to hear from you.

Marlan

[Nobilmente]

This is a really interesting thread.

Plenty of ideas from which to learn.

Analogue summing for me and then editing in Sadie, apart from loving the possibilities of analogue it's a nice tactile way to work as well.

[Fuzzy Logic]

using an old analog 961 or 962 studer desk is a great way to mix/sum classical recordings.

[jackinthebox]

Originally Posted by pacomoy

Very interesting all the opinions! But.. I insist! I'm going to buy Studer 962. I hope that it's not an error.

Cheers, Paco

I have one which i'm very happy with. It's clean but warm because of the transformers. I like the idea of using the insert returns as transformerless inputs too. I'll have to try that. They also have the power supply built in, so no fans or extra boxes, and are very compact. I'm having trouble with the master section of mine at the moment thoug. They are fairly old now so may need recapping.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by John Willett

And one of the reasons I don't like to record on PC (or Mac) and why I use a Nagra VI for recording and a DAW (Sequoia in my case) only for editing and mastering.

The Nagras are computers, no doubt about it. They may not run MS Word, but they have a DOS OS and filesystem and peripheral interfaces for USB and HDD control. They are more a custom PC with nice audio IO, than some sort of pure audio device.

These sentiments about computers not working well with audio are not well founded.

[Plush]

Certainly I agree that a Nagra V, Nagra VI and other portables are computers of a sort.

They do have a pc inside.

But they are made to do only one thing and they have a power supply that is engineered not to interfere with audio. Indeed they run only on a battery. They are designed from day one to do only one thing well--record with high quality.

A generic laptop computer is not designed that way and neither is a generic tower computer.

That said, I do use a tower computer pc with our SADiE editor.
But guess what?---that computer is a custom built one. It is one that is designed to be friendly to audio from day one. (placement of power supplies, certain components, certain mother boards, extra cooling etc.)

So my point is that there are computers and there are audio computers.

[David Spearritt]

Yes, you are correct Plush, the Nagras have a far superior PSU design than a PC. I also agree with your point about "analog" audio not being well treated inside a common garden variety PC. But with purely digital signals inside the PC, the story is different. If you keep you A/D and D/A away from the inside of a PC you are fine. Mixing, editing and mastering in the digital domain is not compromised in a computer.

[Plush]

Thank you, David for making a good clarification. I certainly agree with you.

My objection is with people who use cheapie laptops with cheapie interfaces. You don't get the best results using the cheapest set-up. In fact I think that cheap digital is an abhorent sound. It is expensive and it takes some planning and thinking to get good digital sound.

Good digital sound is never Chinese in my opinion.

[Corran]

Let's assume you have great mics into great preamps into great converters, with Firewire directly into a laptop/desktop.

Assuming you have a Firewire chipset that plays nice with the converter's drivers, how can anything in that computer affect the recorded sound?? When it starts travelling down the Firewire cable it's just 1's an 0's. At that point it's at the whim of the editor to do anything they want with it, so the sound is determined by the quality of plug-ins and SRC algorithm, etc.

Just wondering...I custom build my PC's but I am working on a small portable rig with a netbook. You can't custom build netbooks but am not worried about the sound being degraded by it if it happens to be an Asus or Dell or something.

[videoteque]

I had a nice Dell notebook some years ago. The only stable PC I have used in my life, btw. But the power supply was soooooooooooo noisy, it was a noise inducing machine for several meters around, you couldn't use a mic...

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

John Eargle used a SoundCraft 200B to make many of the DELOS recordings, some of the finest audio recordings out there....

In my opinion..... John Eargle could have used a MACKIE and got similar (excellent) results.

- mic choice
- mic placement
- the mix

NOT the console.

[videoteque]

It is this Delos you are talking about? I'm curious!

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by videoteque

It is this Delos you are talking about? I'm curious!

Delos International On A&M Records

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

NOT the console.

that was my point, mixerguy...

[videoteque]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

Delos International On A&M Records

Thanks