big band jazz recording

[ajfarber]

Hi Gang, I'm recording my 17-piece big band next Monday at Sear Sound in NYC.
My plan is to record without isolation and headphones because the band is more comfortable playing that way.

The instrumentation and mic-ing is as follows.

5 saxophones: 2 altos on a U67, 2 tenors on a U67 and 1 baritone with a U47 or M49. The clarinet will be spot mic'ed with a km56.

4 trumpets with 2 RCA 44BX. Solo trumpet parts will use Coles 4038.
4 trombones with 2 RCA 44BX

1 arch top type acoustic guitar with AKG C60

piano with 1 M49 (I don't plan to have stereo piano)

bass with a KM56 or KM 54 and an RCA 77DX (no DI)I'll mix the 2 mics together.

Drums with an AKG C12 to capture the entire set, plus a KM54 (or something like it) as a hi-hat/snare combi mic, and a Beyer M88 for the bassdrum.

I will play some alto and tenor saxophone solos and a bit of flute on an AKG ELAM 251

I have a guest singer, Jazz great Jon Hendricks, who will be on 2 tunes and the only one in isolation. He'll use a U47.

When I mix, I plan to pan the saxophones and piano to the left channel, and the brass to the right. Bass and drums will be in the middle. I'm not sure where the guitar will go yet. I'm gonna listen to some stereo big band records from the late 50s-mid 60s as a reference.

The mixdown will go to an Ampex 351(set up for 1/2 in tape @ 30ips) through 2 Altec tube mixers. My concept is to have a sound that is like those old 60s big band dates but with as little noise as possible. I love the sound of old tube gear and analogue tape. I would record the whole thing direct to the Ampex machine, but I'm afraid I'm too much of a control freak to allow anyone else to mix it. I don't have enough bread to record 2 inch, although Sear has 16-track heads for their Studer and a 16-track Ampex.

We'll record in Protools and master in Logic audio.

I'll post photos in a few weeks. Wish me luck!

Here's a photo from a similar recording date at Right Track (now Legacy).

[MaTr1x2051]

Sounds like a sweet gig! and... nice mike selection

Just a comment about how you mentioned you'd mix it: Have you considered mixing the band as it would sound in a normal concert setting? All instruments filling the stereo image left to right, as they would sit on stage, maybe drums, bass, and piano off center? I've never mixed a big band like you're mentioning, but I do know that Ive loved the mixes I've done and heard that are more standard images. Just food for thought...

Let us know how it all goes!

[videoteque]

50-60s are back!!!

Good luck and please post pictures/music!

[ebs.audio]

Good luck - sounds like a fun project!

Great idea to have everyone in the same room with no headphones. If you're not limited by track count, I'd add an ORTF pair and flanks out in front of the group and use those as a starting point for your mix.

We recently did a concert of Stan Kenton's music, and I approached the recording in this way. I ended up only using the four mics across the front and spot mics on the soloists, and I was pretty happy with the results.

[Remoteness]

Excellent; I cannot wait to hear the work!

[leddy]

Jon Hendricks, wow. Hope it goes well.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by ebs.audio

Good luck - sounds like a fun project!

Great idea to have everyone in the same room with no headphones. If you're not limited by track count, I'd add an ORTF pair and flanks out in front of the group and use those as a starting point for your mix.

We recently did a concert of Stan Kenton's music, and I approached the recording in this way. I ended up only using the four mics across the front and spot mics on the soloists, and I was pretty happy with the results.

I can't really do an ORTIF pair. For two reasons. First, we're setting up in a different configuration than we would if we were performing live, and secondly because the panning wouldn't be as flexible.

The horns will be 3 parts of a square. Saxophones will face the trumpets and the trombones at a right angle. The rhythm section will be opposite the trombones.

If I were recording in a bigger room, I could set-up more like a concert performance.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by MaTr1x2051

Sounds like a sweet gig! and... nice mike selection

Just a comment about how you mentioned you'd mix it: Have you considered mixing the band as it would sound in a normal concert setting? All instruments filling the stereo image left to right, as they would sit on stage, maybe drums, bass, and piano off center? I've never mixed a big band like you're mentioning, but I do know that Ive loved the mixes I've done and heard that are more standard images. Just food for thought...

Let us know how it all goes!

I thought about that set-up, but I find that the sound gets too unfocused that way. I can do an A-B mix for you all to check out, one mix the way I plan, and another that is more spread out.

[3rd&4thT]

A useful read.

The Art of Recording the Big Band, Pt.1

Cheers,
3rd&4thT

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by 3rd&4thT

A useful read.

The Art of Recording the Big Band, Pt.1

Cheers,
3rd&4thT

That stuff was posted to the web by Bob Auld, a trumpet player turned engineer. I went to college with Bob over 20 years ago. At that time he did live sound for the jazz concerts at Manhattan School of Music where we were students.

Bob's info is interesting to be sure, but it's nothing I didn't already know. I would be more useful to find photos from some big band dates of the era, particularly Count Basie, Duke Ellington and the like.

CTI jazz has photos from Van Gelder's in the 60s, including a Johnny Hodges big band date.

[3rd&4thT]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

CTI jazz has photos from Van Gelder's in the 60s, including a Johnny Hodges big band date.

Van Gelder is notoriously paranoid about having people copy his sound, and it is reported from several sources that he moves mics around before letting photographers in. In other words, wrong place to look.

Have you tried Youtube? There are a lot of old theatrical shorts and newsreel footage that might have more reliable info.

Here's one:

YouTube - Record Making With Duke Ellington (1937)

You can see the string bass elevated for more presence.

BTW, if you're recording at Sear Sound, ask Walter.

Cheers,
3rd&4thT

[Storyville]

Bold move going without a DI on the bass in a room full of brass! I'm guessing your KM56/54 is going to be the F hole capture, and the ribbon will catch the neck? Don't forget to spot check the KM to make sure it works as a good room capture for the brass and make bleed your friend!

Also, you may want to consider that you don't HAVE to keep your drums and bass dead center. Even in isolation, I like to move my drum kit a bit to one side, and then use the bass to balance the low end in the mix by moving it equi-distant to the other side. Or, even consider doing a stereo pair room mic, xy or blumlein and let that do the panning for you. I find it works really well for jazz.

Just some food for thought.

Best of luck.

[hanuman]

Good luck!

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Bold move going without a DI on the bass in a room full of brass!
.

Bold move? I don't understand.

I've been recording jazz for almost 20 years without a bass DI. Besides, all of my favourite albums were recorded without a DI. Anyway, the DI is the wrong sound for what I'm doing. Even mixed in with the mic, there is too much sustain to the sound.

[ajfarber]

Hi Gang!

I just got back from setting up at Sear Sound for my big band date tomorrow.

Here's the set-up.
Trumpets: 2 RCA 77 (with AEA 44 as solo mics)
Trombones: 2 RCA 44 (with RCA 44 as solo mics)
the entire brass section (with trumpets behind the trombones) will have a U67 an cardioid.

Saxophones: U67 for lead alto and 2nd tenor), U67 for 2nd alto and 1st tenor.
Clarinets will be spot mic'd with Coles 4038 and flutes with more U67s.
U47 for baritone.

Guitar: AKG C60 for acoustic rhythm playing and AEA R84 for amp when electric guitar is used.

Piano: U47

Bass: KM54 & RCA 77

Drums: U67 as a main mic to pick up the entire set. KM54 as spot mic for snare/hh and Beyer M88 for bass drum.

Me (solo tenor & alto saxophone & flute) AKG ELAM 251

Jon Hendricks (guest vocalist) U47

We'll have an assortment of Pultec, Tube Tec, Neve 1073, API and Avalon mic-pres.

I'll post photos later this week and MP3s after that.

[sonare]

Will the 67 on drums be placed as if you were standing in front of the set?

Rich

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by sonare

Will the 67 on drums be placed as if you were standing in front of the set?

Rich

The U67 will be placed as if Danny DeVito was standing in front of the set. About cymbal height or a bit higher.

[Legacy]

Hi Andy and All,

Great thread. Man I love working at Sear. I take it you're in studio C?
Chris and Dave are great to work with and really know all the gear and mics to a T as you know. Chris likes to sometimes use the Neumann M582s with the omni capsule on the piano - it sounds really nice on that instrument but obviously might get you in trouble on this gig. It's also a little bit HiFi sounding which probably goes against the grain of this.

Sounds like you'll have a blast. I hope we get to hear some.

-Silas

[Daniel Stark]

Yeah, don't forget to HAVE FUN!!! lol

Thanks for the help on my recording a while back Andy! Good luck on the date, look forward to checking it out.

[ajfarber]

Here is a quick mix from the session.

[Remoteness]

Nice work Andy -- keep up the good work!

[mathieujm]

BRAVO


JMM

[ajfarber]

Here's another quick mix. I tried a couple of different panning things here, and added some compression to the drums.

[Roland]

Some really great players you got there! Love the Coles on the Clarinet. (great sax solo, by the way!)

I loved the tangible sound, but I am a little surprised that it doesnt have much low end, particularly considering many of the mics being used.

May I ask what the recording is being used for?

Regards


Roland

[John Moran]

This is a timely thread as I will be recording a similar big band orchestra in the Glen Miller style most likely in August and it's the same considerations; no headphones, everyone playing ensemble, minimize the bleed. My biggest concerns right now are finding an acoustically suitable room (think large volume of space with high ceilings) to do this in.

I've done these before and they are always a lot of fun to do because basically once everything is set up, it's hit the red button and let'em play.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Roland

Some really great players you got there! Love the Coles on the Clarinet. (great sax solo, by the way!)

I loved the tangible sound, but I am a little surprised that it doesnt have much low end, particularly considering many of the mics being used.

May I ask what the recording is being used for?

Regards


Roland

This will be part of my new big band CD. Low end? I hadn't noticed a lack of low end.

[Uncle Russ]

I'll never forget what Artie Shaw asked a friend of mine after he cranked out a big band album: "Now you have a great CD. What are you going to do with it?"

Of course, Artie was just being practical. Personally, I hope you record a dozen more albums of that quality or, if possible, even better. I've been recording jazz sessions for years and putting many on my website for people to listen to at no charge. Somebody has to keep jazz and good recording practices alive. If not us, then who?

[ajfarber]

A few photos.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

This will be part of my new big band CD. Low end? I hadn't noticed a lack of low end.

Yeah, the second mix has more low end/fuller bass sound. Are you mixing itb or at the studio?

Regards


Roland

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Roland

Yeah, the second mix has more low end/fuller bass sound. Are you mixing itb or at the studio?

Regards


Roland

These are all pre-mixes, but they are ITB. I don't think I changed the bass eq, but I did change the RCA77/KM54 ratio to favour the 77 a bit. That would account for a fuller bass sound. I don't want too much bass, otherwise it becomes boomey and the actual bass notes become less defined.

The final mix will be summed through an old ALTEC valve mixer (2 actualy) and recorded to 1/2" tape on a vitage AMPEX 351, and back again into Logic Audio.

With these pre-mixes, I'm just experimenting with panning. Reeds left, brass right, bass centre, piano left, drums right-ish and rhythm guitar-far right.