Best first set of mics to get for location/mobile recordings ??

[androne]

I will have 16 XLR mic pres to record with and I am looking now for the most versatile and great sounding set of mics to record with at 96/192 khz, recording acoustic jazz and classical played music.

Could you guys recommend me the best bang for the buck set of mics for:
1. solo (classical) instrument recordings
2. stereo recordings
3. classical choir recordings
4. gospel choir recordings


Thanks a lot in advance!

[NorseHorse]

Budget...?

(Not that stating your budget will necessarily narrow the field! )

[androne]

$3k to start up, then later expand up to $5-6k

[sonare]

If you want 16 "great sounding" mics you should consider $30k rather than $3k. But seriously-- you need to define "great sounding" because $6k for 16 mics will not give you much.

If all you are looking for is a great pair-- either Schoeps Mk21 or Sennheiser 8020 and 8040. 4 Senns are roughly the same as 2 Schoeps-- around $4k. Also depends on where you live.

Rich

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by sonare

If you want 16 "great sounding" mics you should consider $30k rather than $3k.

Not so OTT as it sounds - I have just totted up the retail price of the 6 mics that have been my mainstay over recent years.

A pair each of omni, cardioid and fig-8. Retail price now £10,709.

My pair of switchable-pattern mics are about £7,200 a pair, retail.

That's £18,000 for 8 mics.

If budget is tight it's better to go for quality over quantity and build up the collection as finance allows.

That's how I did it and I have never needed to sell a mic.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by androne

I will have 16 XLR mic pres to record with and I am looking now for the most versatile and great sounding set of mics to record with at 96/192 khz, recording acoustic jazz and classical played music.

Could you guys recommend me the best bang for the buck set of mics for:
1. solo (classical) instrument recordings
2. stereo recordings
3. classical choir recordings
4. gospel choir recordings


Thanks a lot in advance!

From what you say, i don't see the need of 16 mic except maybe for the gospel choir.

most versatile

First, go with one pair of great cardioid SDCs. Don't forget the Beyerdynamic MC930 which are great on acoustic music for less money than the big ones (Schoeps, Neumann, Sennheiser, DPA)

JMM

[hollywood_steve]

There's 'great' and there's 'cost is no object'

When budget is a consideration, I think you can get a great mic locker for quite a bit less - I think the budget below would allow for mics that even the guys on this forum could happily live with:

SDC - cardiod pair - $1,200
SDC - omni pair - $1,200
ribbon pair - $2,,000
stereo mic - $2,000

Those seven mics will give you many ways to work, from a basic stereo pair, to a pair combined with a secondary pair or spots, etc. Its still nowhere near 16 mics, but I can't say that I've ever used more than 8 at one time. With the type of work you listed, I don't see where you will need 16ch either. And its in your 'eventual' budget range. (+/- $6k)

[RMJAZZ]

If you are only getting 2 mics at first...to record what you stated, I would get a pair of Schoeps CMC64 (try to find them used). They are great on everything...especially for traditional Jazz, orchestra, solo strings/wind and brass. They are amazing on piano too. You can hear a whole band recorded with these on the Yellow Jackets "25" CD-all Schoeps through Mackie Onyx pre's.

In Music,
Rob

[RMJAZZ]

Now the Gospel choir could get interesting if they have a band. You could rent/borrow a few mics I'm sure, if that becomes the case. Here are a few mics to think about for your second phase of purchases;

*Pair*KSM44 (VERY versatile mics)you can find these used all day long ($550-$600)

A pair of ribbons would be cool too. I have had great luck with my Apex 205's modded by Michael Joly (mics-$100ea) If you can get a couple 121 or 122 that would be great.

Drums add a whole other dimension, so if you aren't getting into drums...good for you! It can get expensive. You would want some dynamics for that. Kick/snare etc.....
Toms-several 421
Kick-D112/Beta52/D6

A lot of traditional jazz players don't cut holes in their kick head....a Beyer M88 works great for this application. Of course those KSM44's can do good there too.


Just think in terms of what mics you can afford that are versatile. The ones I mentioned can take you to many good places. Just remember with the ribbon mics, you will need decent pre amps that can handle ribbons well...all can not. I would put some of the second phase into a pair of Forssell or Hardy pre's to augemtn whatever you have....and if you already have those then God Bless you...you are well on your way to recording bliss!

[7rojo7]

I buy good mics in 3s

[audiothings]

if you are serious and you can afford it, you have already got some good advice.

if not, reduce your list to say 10 mics, and look at a pair each of oktava mc012s, shure ksm 137s, AT 3031s, cascade fat heads and a pair of multi pattern LDCs (maybe used C414s, or if you look carefully, even new ones)...

i'm a third world man and this is the sort of thing i can afford... does my job.

[Musician]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

From what you say, i don't see the need of 16 mic except maybe for the gospel choir.

First, go with one pair of great cardioid SDCs. Don't forget the Beyerdynamic MC930 which are great on acoustic music for less money than the big ones (Schoeps, Neumann, Sennheiser, DPA)

JMM

Can you recommend some specific models ?

[Musician]

Originally Posted by John Willett

If budget is tight it's better to go for quality over quantity and build up the collection as finance allows.

That's how I did it and I have never needed to sell a mic.

Thats the idea

[Musician]

Originally Posted by hollywood_steve

There's 'great' and there's 'cost is no object'

When budget is a consideration, I think you can get a great mic locker for quite a bit less - I think the budget below would allow for mics that even the guys on this forum could happily live with:

SDC - cardiod pair - $1,200
SDC - omni pair - $1,200
ribbon pair - $2,,000
stereo mic - $2,000

Those seven mics will give you many ways to work, from a basic stereo pair, to a pair combined with a secondary pair or spots, etc. Its still nowhere near 16 mics, but I can't say that I've ever used more than 8 at one time. With the type of work you listed, I don't see where you will need 16ch either. And its in your 'eventual' budget range. (+/- $6k)

This is great advice!... Though could you recommend some mic models pls ?

[Musician]

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

Now the Gospel choir could get interesting if they have a band. You could rent/borrow a few mics I'm sure, if that becomes the case. Here are a few mics to think about for your second phase of purchases;

*Pair*KSM44 (VERY versatile mics)you can find these used all day long ($550-$600)

A pair of ribbons would be cool too. I have had great luck with my Apex 205's modded by Michael Joly (mics-$100ea) If you can get a couple 121 or 122 that would be great.

Drums add a whole other dimension, so if you aren't getting into drums...good for you! It can get expensive. You would want some dynamics for that. Kick/snare etc.....
Toms-several 421
Kick-D112/Beta52/D6

A lot of traditional jazz players don't cut holes in their kick head....a Beyer M88 works great for this application. Of course those KSM44's can do good there too.


Just think in terms of what mics you can afford that are versatile. The ones I mentioned can take you to many good places. Just remember with the ribbon mics, you will need decent pre amps that can handle ribbons well...all can not. I would put some of the second phase into a pair of Forssell or Hardy pre's to augemtn whatever you have....and if you already have those then God Bless you...you are well on your way to recording bliss!

This is great! thanks a lot!
Well... I will be using ULN8s to record, think that will be covering my needs for pres

[Adebar]

Originally Posted by Musician

This is great! thanks a lot!
Well... I will be using ULN8s to record, think that will be covering my needs for pres

We had great results with a pair Josephson C617SET and ULN-8. Almost as great as the combination C617SET and Forssell SMP-2.

Maybe you think the C617SET is out of your budget. But with a pair of these as main pair you don´t need as much spot microphones as with other omnis.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Musician

This is great advice!... Though could you recommend some mic models pls ?

For the $ total cited by Steve, I'd also consider the following:

SDC omni: Sennheiser 8020 pr ($2200)
SDC card: Sennheiser 8040 pr ($2200)
Ribbons: AEA R88 ($1700)

Three pairs of world class mics you'lll never want to part with. Money well spent. Quality over quantity.

If you are thinking that you need more mics (still good but a notch or two below the above perhaps), you might consider some of these instead:

Beyer MC930 card pr ($1000)
Shure KSM137 card pr ($600)
Shure KSM141 omni/card switchable pr ($800)
Earthworks QTC30 omni pr ($1800)
Beyer M130/M160 ribbons (about $700/mic)

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

Beyer MC930 card pr ($1000)

Add to that one pair each of the new MC 910 omnis and 950 hypers, and you've got a set of 3 pairs with different characteristics for all purposes...

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Add to that one pair each of the new MC 910 omnis and 950 hypers, and you've got a set of 3 pairs with different characteristics for all purposes...

Do you have any experience with those new mics d_fu ?

JMM

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

Do you have any experience with those new mics d_fu ?JMM

Admittedly, I don't. But I have each mic's predecessor (800 series), and considering the praise the 930 gets around here, 910 and 950 must be pretty good, too... Alright, I'm a Beyer fan...

[Jim vanBergen]

I really agree with buying mics in three's...or FIVES! I finally have five Schoeps I own all to myself. They rock.

if you are doing classical or orchestral recording, being able to do a Decca Tree with outriggers is important. I suggest three of something good omni or subcardioid.

Two LDC are imperative, plus two pairs of SDC spot mics, and two ribbons (or a stereo).

Then I'd add a slew of good dynamic mics later.

So...my choice:
3 Schoeps CMC6/MK-21 (subcardioid) or MK2S (omni) Budget version: Senn MKH8020
2 Neumann U87 (budget version: Shure KSM series 44)
2 Senn MKH8040 spot mics or stereo pair
2 Shure KSM137 spot mics
2 AEA R84 or a stereo R88 (or go Coles, or go active with another manufacturer)

Then for live vocals, rock guitar cabs, rock & jazz instruments, consider:
5 Telefunken M80's
3 Shure SM58
3 Shure Beta 57
3 Beyer M88
1 Beyer M69
1 Shure Beta 52, Audix D6, A-T AE2500 (kick drum mic of choice)
2 E/V RE-20 or similar (kick, guitar/bass cab, horns, vox)
2 Senn 409/609/909 guitar cab & instrument mic
4 Senn 421/504/604/904/ tom & instrument mic

This kind of package has served me pretty well for 20 years.

[klaukholm]

For classical on a budget, I would consider some good multipatterns that can work anywhere.
I would look at
3 MKH800 - it is a superb orchestra main mic
(Some very good engineers do not like this mic for spot use, but I find it has its uses, particularly on very classy players)
2 U89 or TLM170

this alone is minimum $12k plus tax, but you have 5 very good mics that can do a lot of things well in the classical realm.

4 mkh 8040
2 schoeps cmc6mk4

This would be about $20-22k and would allow you to do small orchestral work.
Add 5 TLM193 for brass and horns
4-6 km184 or mkh8040 for percussion
a pair of neumann km130 or km143 for outriggers (this frees up your two u89/tlm170 for spot duties)

I will let others recommend mics for other styles.

[d_fu]

Kjetil,

while there is certainly nothing wrong with your suggestions in principle, I don't think it makes much sense to recommend mic setups that are so far beyond the OP's budget...

It would make no sense to buy "junque" (© plush) now, which would need to be replaced at a later stage, but buying a setup of good solid mid-price mics now (Shure, Beyer, etc.) would allow these to be used as spot / secondary mics if and when the budget allows for the purchase of better mics. At this stage, I don't really think a U89 will provide better results just because it's a U89. Practicing the use of various types of mics will help more than the potentially false comfort of producing foolproof great recordings, just because one's got Neumanns and Schoepses...

Heck, even an MXL 2003 used as spot mic for a horn soloist can get you a lot of enthusiastic praise from the musician...

As we all know, it's the music, the room, and the mic placement more than the actual mics that make the sound, so my advice would be to buy something that one won't ever need to be ashamed of even as part of a higher-end setup (case in point: the AKG 460s I started out with 15 years ago instead of going for Schoeps - I still use them, and they do a good job), but without overstretching the budget now. If income starts happening, more purchases will be possible. Meanwhile, money can be invested in preamps, good audio interfaces and maybe a laptop (what good are the mics if the audio device isn't reliable...?)

My other advice would be to buy second-hand, but not everybody will feel comfortable with that. Almost my entire collection is from ebay, and I made some real bargains. Just got an MKH 406 (XLR) for € 200, can't wait to try it.

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I would look at 3 MKH800 - it is a superb orchestra main mic (Some very good engineers do not like this mic for spot use, but I find it has its uses, particularly on very classy players)

Beg to differ slightly, although I can only speak for the MKH 80. Wasn't so fond of it as a main mic, but it's an excellent spot. Just tried it on a solo saxophone in a classical setup, sounded great.


Daniel

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Beg to differ slightly, although I can only speak for the MKH 80. Wasn't so fond of it as a main mic, but it's an excellent spot. Just tried it on a solo saxophone in a classical setup, sounded great.

The new MKH 800 TWIN are also worth looking at in this range.

A pair has just been trialled by a record company that already has the MKH 800 and loves the TWIN even more.

[klaukholm]

Daniel,
As far as I am concerned, what I suggested was a mid range lineup of mics.
I frankly don't think you should take on classical if you don't have atleast midrange appropriate mics.

Better to make a list, buy the first pair and rent the rest while you save up for a few more etc.

I made that choice a long time ago. Never spend money on anything that would later need to be upgraded as that gets expensive very quickly.

As for the 800, I dont use ours for mains either, but I know lots of people who use them to great effect, including DG and telarc and several of the guys who come through here.

I think the 800 is a very good mid priced main mic, and unlike any of the others I have, it is useful for spots as well.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

As far as I am concerned, what I suggested was a mid range lineup of mics. I frankly don't think you should take on classical if you don't have atleast midrange appropriate mics.

We seem to have different definitions of mid range then...
What I'm thinking of is a range from upward of e.g. the Beyer 930s (or the Shures mentioned here, which I have not tried) through AKG 480, Neumann 100 and 180 series, Schoeps and into MKH x0 or 80x0.

MKH 800 is where my definition of high end would begin (U87/9, TLM150, etc., you name it). Anything that is beyond maybe € 2000 per mic....

I'm convinced that one can make good classical recordings with the mics within my (definition of) mid range. BIS are a good example, as discussed in another thread. Great mics don't automatically make great recordings, do they?
And then of course, classical and classical may not be the same, it depends on the kind of market one is in.

Better to make a list, buy the first pair and rent the rest while you save up for a few more etc.

Good point. Buying used mics is another way to save.

I made that choice a long time ago. Never spend money on anything that would later need to be upgraded as that gets expensive very quickly.

Precisely what I said - and I'm convinced that the mid range mics that have been mentioned here will continue to work well as spots etc. alongside more expensive mics in future setups.

Daniel

[Teddy Ray]

I would feel very, very confident taking a gaggle of AT 4050s to any recording. They bring the goods.

[7rojo7]

I opted for Schoeps compacts which are more quiet than the 'collette' models but have less headroom, I don't put them near anything loud. I have 3 CCM21 and 3 CCM5. 3 Brauner Phantom V. I'm selling 2 Valvets and my remaining VM-1 (not because I don't lik'em)
Has anyone tried Line Audio swedish mics or the pre's? looks interesting for those on a budget
The 21s and 5s are easy to fly and inconspicuous
they cost quite a bit less too
Phantoms (xy or ortf over omni) go in the pit in front of the conductor for operettas and 21s get the stage divided in 4 from the lip, 5s get used as spots with beyer 3 m260s and 2 JV74bs (harpsichord, flute, oboe, cello or viola da gamba (recitativo)
if there are monitors on stage fig8 placement can be difficult
You can do drums with 3 mics in mono or stereo for this music, you'll want a spot on the basses, instruments or voices and maybe the altos

Gospel
3 on drums, 1 on bass, 1 on gtr these can be dynamics (2 m160s and 3 421s)
1or 2 on piano, an ortf pair, spots on the basses and altos, saxophone (dynamic)? other surprises, soloists?
It's common for me to put up mics that don't run through the monitors, let the FOH guy do his thing and I do mine, unless it gets too hairy with too many mics around. He'll want to move the mics closer, sensitive mics can wreak havoc with feedback, so you use his as spots, put up your main array, maybe use his for the rhythm section too, then you'll need splits or run your whole rig off the same cicuit as the FOH but you're inviting problems, also with direct out from the console if available. splits 12 channels should be enough or maybe the service can bring some
ping your array
It's important to know what purpose a mic will have before you choose
anyway get at least 5 of the same great mic, I haven't them except as overheads (pretty damn good, beat out the 414s they had, didn't check the model but listened only) but the Beyer MC930 get a lot of good remarks, for about 2500 you can get 5 new, they come in omni too, 5 omnis and a pair of cards (3500) should get you through just about anything, then some HQ dynamics (used?), Audix makes some nice dynamics, I've had only good experiences with Senn 604es, you won't be ashamed to put the Beyers on anything

[7rojo7]

shock mounts, stage boxes with multicore snakes (I have 6-8 channel, I need less now that there's a crisis) keeps things neat and it's fast, panels with multicore connectors wired straight to the pres or to some half normalled tie lines, splits, backup recorder and 100s of other sundries

[chris319]

Nothing wrong with making a list of desirable mics, but it is highly worthwhile to find out what is available for rent in your area. You'll be dollars ahead renting your Schoepses, Earthworks, Neumanns, etc. if they are available near you.