Good Switchable Polar Pattern Mic for a Film.

[ftngrave]

I'm doing the sound and dialogue for a short film, consisting of scenes in the interior of a car, in a hotel room, and in a small interior room with many people sitting around a table.

For these particular scenes I'm thinking a mic that could switch between omni-directional and figure eight polarity patterns would be ideal. I haven't done field or film recording before so I don't know what polarity switchable mics are good for this type of application (I've only ever used the polarity switchable AKG condenser mic for music recording, the real popular standard one, whatever it's called).

I don't know the strengths of a dynamic vs. condenser for film, except that I would guess condensers would work best in interiors with no additional sound besides the dialogue, and dynamic mics would work best when there's a lot of external sounds going on.

Anyway, basically, can anyone recommend a good mic for these types of scenes that can switch between omni-directional and figure eight patterns?

[Petrus]

In film and video production the main goal of audio recording is to get the principal sounds (dialog, effects, ambience) recorded as clean as possible. For that reason fairly directional microphones are used, I would say shotguns in different lengths and hypercardioids are used at least 80% of the time (exepting lavaliers, of course). The idea is to have all the components of the sound on separate tracks and the final mix of these are made during the editing. In major films the audio track count might exeed 100!

The problem with omnis and even cardioids are the unwanted extraneous sounds and reflections/echos they pick up, which are practically impossible to filter out from the recording. On the other hand it is always easy to add echo and ambience into a track which is too dry, not to mention effects, foley etc. Film sound is far removed from reality, it is totally artificial (and usually origainally mono exept the ambience tracks).

One more thing to consider is the wind protection and boomability of the microphone. Studio mics with variable pattern are big and heavy, not ideal for video work. Small hypercardioids or omni miniatures are much easier to conceal inside a car, for example, than a Neuman U87...

Dynamic mics have no place in video production. There is no advantages over condensers (exept maybe when recording gunshots).

I think you should rethink your audio, and try to find some audio-for-film tutorials.

If you need good but cheap video-oriented mics take a look at Rode shotguns and Oktava MK-012 with hypercardioid capsule.

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by ftngrave

I'm doing the sound and dialogue for a short film, consisting of scenes in the interior of a car, in a hotel room, and in a small interior room with many people sitting around a table.

For these particular scenes I'm thinking a mic that could switch between omni-directional and figure eight polarity patterns would be ideal. I haven't done field or film recording before so I don't know what polarity switchable mics are good for this type of application (I've only ever used the polarity switchable AKG condenser mic for music recording, the real popular standard one, whatever it's called).

I don't know the strengths of a dynamic vs. condenser for film, except that I would guess condensers would work best in interiors with no additional sound besides the dialogue, and dynamic mics would work best when there's a lot of external sounds going on.

Anyway, basically, can anyone recommend a good mic for these types of scenes that can switch between omni-directional and figure eight patterns?

Btw: switching the response pattern of the mic is not the same as switching its polarity (often incorrectly referred to as "phase"). A polarity switch would invert the signal.

-Dan.

[ftngrave]

Petrus, your first paragraph was very helpful, thanks.

I spent some considerable time reading up on audio for film, and everything you said in your second paragraph I assumed before my research.

I found things on the internet that said:
"ultra-directional for external locations, directional (shorter) for interiors and multiple sound sources, and omni-directional for cramped interiors"...

as well as:
"If you're not going to be right on with a shotgun mic or there are adjacent sound sources, such as other talent speaking roles, room reflections/ reverberations due to an interior location... it might be better to pick a hypercardioid or cardioid mic for the application".

I assumed that there were hypercardioid figure eight mics made for film, as well as omni-directional mics made for film. At least people on the internet mention using them (well I only found mentions of omnis). The car scene for instance will be a stationary car in a parking lot. We are renting the mics and equipment so budget isn't too big of a concern. I was already planning to rent a shotgun mic and then thought of a mic that could change its directional pattern could be cool. But would you not use an omni mic for two people speaking in the front seat of a car? I had read that shotguns create unwanted reflections in cramped spaces. My other idea of a figure eight pattern was two people sitting on different parallel beds in a hotel room.

Do you think I should just do the whole thing with one or two shotguns? Or a shotgun and a hyper cardioid? (since it's my first experience with this and the mentionings of omnis I found only made me think of unwanted noise).

My other question is, what are the different kinds of mics that are made for film? It seems there are shotguns, hypercardioid, lavaliers, and omnis. Can you explain when and how one would use an omni? Or do you think they're just a bad idea altogether (like when you talk how it's much easier to make a dry recording have space in post-production).

And when would you suggest a hypercardioid over a shotgun? In more cramped spaces? When there are actors speaking further away from each other?

Thanks.

[ftngrave]

Petrus, your first paragraph was very helpful, thanks.

I spent some considerable time reading up on audio for film, and everything you said in your second paragraph I assumed before my research.

I found things on the internet that said:
"ultra-directional for external locations, directional (shorter) for interiors and multiple sound sources, and omni-directional for cramped interiors"...

as well as:
"If you're not going to be right on with a shotgun mic or there are adjacent sound sources, such as other talent speaking roles, room reflections/ reverberations due to an interior location... it might be better to pick a hypercardioid or cardioid mic for the application".

I assumed that there were hypercardioid figure eight mics made for film, as well as omni-directional mics made for film. At least people on the internet mention using them (well I only found mentions of omnis). The car scene for instance will be a stationary car in a parking lot. We are renting the mics and equipment so budget isn't too big of a concern. I was already planning to rent a shotgun mic and then thought of a mic that could change its directional pattern could be cool. But would you not use an omni mic for two people speaking in the front seat of a car? I had read that shotguns create unwanted reflections in cramped spaces. My other idea of a figure eight pattern was two people sitting on different parallel beds in a hotel room.

Do you think I should just do the whole thing with one or two shotguns? Or a shotgun and a hyper cardioid? (since it's my first experience with this and the mentionings of omnis I found only made me think of unwanted noise).

My other question is, what are the different kinds of mics that are made for film? It seems there are shotguns, hypercardioid, lavaliers, and omnis. Can you explain when and how one would use an omni? Or do you think they're just a bad idea altogether (like when you talk how it's much easier to make a dry recording have space in post-production).

And when would you suggest a hypercardioid over a shotgun? In more cramped spaces? When there are actors speaking further away from each other?

Thanks.

[Petrus]

A lot of questions, so little time...

One thing you have to remember is that you just can not put a studio figure-8 mic between the actors, as it would show in the picture. For just getting clean audio it would maybe be a great solution, but...

Omnis are used a LOT, but only as lavaliers for dialog. There the "omniness" is needed for no proximity effect and clean pickup (lav can be pointed any which way, or hidden somewhere), but the closeness with the sound source (hidden in collar, hair, sideburns...) means that the levels of extraneous sounds picked up is low. An omni 4 feet away does not work, exept maybe for ambience/room tone pickup.

Hypercardioids and shotguns can and must be located a little further away, but smallesh mics can be also hidden in the scene, or easily boomed.

If you have only fairly static scenes with two actors, you could use simple wired lavaliers on them or two hypers hanging from above and pointed at them for interior scenes, also in the car. For a group of people around a table 3 cardioids maybe, or if only one is talking at a time, hyper boomed from above.

If you want to buy some good value mics, get 2 or 3 Oktava MK-012 mics with hyper and cardioid caps (with K-Tek suspensions and BBG wind protection from Rycote) and rent a 3 or 4 channel mixer like Sound Devices 302 or 442.

Yes, ambience shoud be recorded stereo, why not? Prefereably with some mono compatible technique like MS or XY.

[pkautzsch]

Get a Sennheiser 416 (or the Schoeps CMIT) and you're safe.
Everything else mic-wise is nice-to-have, but not essential.
Of course, a compact super-cardioid is nice, and has saved my butt on my last shoot (very low ceilings), same goes for omnis (can be very nice when placed in the center of a table around which the actors are sitting), but: using these things on a movie set needs a bit of experience. You don't actually have any time to try things out, so you best concentrate on getting a great sound from your boom mic.

[darcproductions]

Hello

Just wanted to say thanks...this thread helped a lot. I have a Sennhieser 416 already.

Some basic questions:

I have 2 boundry mics, how would these best serve me? Car, on a table for people talking, hung on a wall...

And Hypercardoid mic, I have a AKG C1000. Is this suitable? If not, recommendations?

Thanks

[pkautzsch]

Boundary mics can be nice on a table, as long as one doesn't see them. Ie., they need to be very flat, not the Shure type. I sometimes use lavs taped to the table. In a car they can be nice too, though the best bet is (again, as long as not seen) a 416 in the middle between the seats pointing up to the heads.

I'm not sure the C1000 is quiet and rugged enough for film sound. Often the sounds you want to record are quite soft. What you need in low ceiling rooms is a SHORT mic like the Schoeps CCM 41, or one of the remote capsule systems - Schoeps CMC5/MK41, Neumann KM100/AK50 come to mind, both not cheap, and you pay a few hundred bucks for the cable alone. I don't know of many low-budget compact mics, but you might try the Rode NT-6 (I think...might be a different model number, but they make a remote capsule mic with a 9ft cable between capsule and body). Cardioid, but when close enough it might work better than a 416 too far away because you can't get closer with that long mic. I've read some reports about the Oktava 012 with hyper capsule being used in lo-budget location sound. For my taste, they are too dark, and way too prone to handling noise and wind. At least they are sufficiently quiet.

[darcproductions]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Boundary mics can be nice on a table, as long as one doesn't see them. Ie., they need to be very flat, not the Shure type. I sometimes use lavs taped to the table. In a car they can be nice too, though the best bet is (again, as long as not seen) a 416 in the middle between the seats pointing up to the heads.

I'm not sure the C1000 is quiet and rugged enough for film sound. Often the sounds you want to record are quite soft. What you need in low ceiling rooms is a SHORT mic like the Schoeps CCM 41, or one of the remote capsule systems - Schoeps CMC5/MK41, Neumann KM100/AK50 come to mind, both not cheap, and you pay a few hundred bucks for the cable alone. I don't know of many low-budget compact mics, but you might try the Rode NT-6 (I think...might be a different model number, but they make a remote capsule mic with a 9ft cable between capsule and body). Cardioid, but when close enough it might work better than a 416 too far away because you can't get closer with that long mic. I've read some reports about the Oktava 012 with hyper capsule being used in lo-budget location sound. For my taste, they are too dark, and way too prone to handling noise and wind. At least they are sufficiently quiet.

Thanks!

Just finished our first feature length...we were told we were among the most professional they'd worked with. I owe some of that to your input and advice.
We were blessed and got a amazing deal on rentals...Neuman KM100 and a AKG pencil mic(which is slipping my mind) cart etc...for next to nothing!

Honestly thanks!

The film is called "The Unleashed" ouija board scary flick.