There's no "right" or "wrong" way of doing it until it's a mistake (derailed version)

[Remoteness]

I mean, I have captured plenty of recordings that sounded pretty awesome even though many of us would have said, it was not the right way to do it.

How about you folks?

We can even take this to another level - I've designed and built thngs that are far from the normal mindset, but worked well for me...

Is there really a "right" and "wrong" way of doing something if the end result comes out first-rate?

Put away your slide-rulers and chime in!

[PlugHead]

Well,

There's the school of "my way or the highway"!

Kidding aside, I like having a plan, but - experimentation is the key to knowledge. I've found the more times I'm in a sticky situation are the times I learn the most.

The school of life can be harsh sometimes, but - it also teaches us valuable lessons that a classroom or hands-off environment can never provide...

[Jim vanBergen]

In the world of live remotes, I have been stuck with ALL kinds of horrific mic placement, mic choices, etc that I would never want to use as a signal path in the studio.

Most of them turned out quite well for the final product. It was a shock at first, then I thought, "what the hell, do the best you can do all the time, and mix it like there's no second chance". Not everything is perfect, but I find I'm not polishing turds, you know what I mean?

For the people who turned to a '58 for a lead vocal in the studio, they learned that a super expensive mic is not always the best choice, right? Sometimes less really is more. We can all learn new things, and sometimes we have to unlearn what we know.

Just adding my $0.02...

JvB

[mixedupsteve]

I did an Earth Day event recently and towards the end a rock band came on and all we had left for drum overheads were 58s. Sounded great.

And Steve, the Patent system of the US was put in place to encourage people to design things and change the design of things. It's a good thing!!

[joelpatterson]

I try to impress on everyone who interns for me: there is very little in the way of "standards" or "rulebooks" to guide you. Every decision you make, about everything, is pretty much a subjective choice... which mic to use, where to put it, how much gain, settings on the safety compressor?

I like to think this is "different" from other fields, maybe yes, maybe no, but I have to believe that there's a "right" way to mix portland cement and lime and sand together to build a brick wall, it's not all contingent on what venue the brick wall is performing at, how many players in the brick wall, how big is the brick wall's drumkit....

It's all about results, and recipes and formulae won't ever get you where you need to go.

[Enginearing]

i rekon the result is the most important factor... there are often all sorts of ways to achieve them, but rather than being right or wrong, I weigh up options based on what would be appropriate for the given situation, and then make a decision based on effort/cost etc required, Vs end result.
its always important not to lose the big picture...
WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE?
is the one question that needs to be asked while weighing up all the factors we encounter.

as long as something is safe, effective and efficient i'm happy to roll with it.

one of the best rules i go by is the golden rule...
The man with the gold make the rules..
IE whoever's paying the cheque should have final say... by all means pitch in with your 2c but remember the chain of command and don't talk over the chief.

(sometimes I don't even use a slide rule....)

[Corran]

I find myself writing up detailed plans about mic choice, preamps, placement, etc. etc. on all my major jobs, but then 99% of the time all this goes out the window when I get to the venue.

I suppose there are some definite no-no's, but in general everything is subjective. But of course one way or another might get you a better result, but a lot of times (here at least) there is no extensive mic checks and stuff.

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by Corran

I find myself writing up detailed plans about mic choice, preamps, placement, etc. etc. on all my major jobs, but then 99% of the time all this goes out the window when I get to the venue.

I suppose there are some definite no-no's, but in general everything is subjective. But of course one way or another might get you a better result, but a lot of times (here at least) there is no extensive mic checks and stuff.

This is a lot of what I deal with too...and usually it turns out ok. I will be experimenting this weekend with the pair of MK319's I just acquired set up as room mics and put my usual room mics (414's) on the guitar cabinets (as well as a 57) to see how it comes out...hopefully it doesn't suck.

[chris319]

It's very simple. There's the gearslutz.com-Remote-Possibilities-in-Acoustic-Music-&-Location-Recording way, and there's the wrong way

[rumleymusic]

experimentation is the key to knowledge

That can work backwards also. Knowledge being the key to experimentation. I believe there are techniques that "Just Work". And that should be the starting point for experimentation. A person should not jump into calculus before learning how to add, and great achievements in any field are usually stemmed from what has already been accomplished.

I can say, however, that my competition will always and have always been doing it the wrong way. (unless you know better)

[Plush]

Originally Posted by chris319

It's very simple. There's the gearslutz.com-Remote-Possibilities-in-Acoustic-Music-&-Location-Recording way, and there's the wrong way

Certainly you are correct.

The reason it is correct is that the people already made the mistakes and now they are giving their advice so that you can avoid the mistakes.

Or just make up anything without guidance. Then try it. That is the idea of some people here. They'll get a sound. It's just that the sound they will get won't be anywhere close to optimum.

People get paid for optimum and take pride in exceeding optimum and aiming towards capturing transcendental sound. That's when all the emotion of the performance is captured as well as the sound.

[NorseHorse]

Hey guys, two of my posts pertinent to this discussion have dissappeared. To repeat myself, I would have to agree with Chris and with Plush. There does seem to be a "right" and "wrong" way of doing things, at least as espoused by GearSlutz members.

Chris's comment was especially appropriate, considering how he tried something new (OLD!) and received very harsh responses instead of "go-for-it". Personally, I've learned the most when I've compared arrays and samples side-by-side, and I wouldn't take that experience away from anybody else.

I've also been told that I'm doing things the wrong way in terms of attracting business. I've also been told what the response to my approach would be. All that has been wrong. And I've received the opposite advice from engineers who AREN'T on GearSlutz. I think that goes to show that there is a "culture" of GearSlutz, and there are lots of engineers who aren't on GS doing things in different ways and being successful at it. I've met them.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish...

I'm with enginearing, I think "what are you trying to acheive?" is a VERY important question. And it sometimes leads to using the "wrong" techniques. Pick up "Sound of Africa: Making Music Zulu in a South African Studio" by Louise Meintjes and learn how the Zulu musicians used "wrong", non-Zulu instruments to achieve "authentic", Zulu sounds. Sometimes the wrong sound is closer to the right sound than the right sound is! (That's the primary reason I use reverb, actually!)

Same with surviving in a given area. Sometimes what is "right" in one area is absolutely wrong in another area. And sometimes to get to the "right" way, you have to start at the "wrong" way. This is espoused all over GS by posters who recommend that new engineers work with friends cutting their chops for very little $$, and then work their way from there.

Once I used an ART DPS II on a classical session, and it rocked. $200 preamp beat a $2000 preamp. They responded differently to the acoustics of the room. It was "wrong", but I used my ears and was happier for it.

Or consider one of my choral clients. I mic them from the rear wall of the church. I basically get as far away as possible. It's the "wrong" approach, but it's the "right" sound and is finally what the director wanted.

Or consider Plush recording an organ with spaced cardioids!: The best-selling Naxos organ CD... (Seems to have worked out well... thumbsup)

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Hey guys, two of my posts pertinent to this discussion have dissappeared. To repeat myself, I would have to agree with Chris and with Plush. There does seem to be a "right" and "wrong" way of doing things, at least as espoused by GearSlutz members.

They didn't disappear...they went here: Norsehorse has something to say!

[Plush]

Well Norse you have certainly misread my post above yours if you believe I advocate doing "just anything." I advocate learning from those who are already highly skilled. These people will not suggest doing something the "wrong" way to amuse oneself or doing it the "wrong" way because magically it MIGHT turn out better than the proven method.

What we do is based on templates and science as well as judgment and art. One thing it is not based on is chance.

In your example, we didn't record the organ record the "wrong" way. We recorded it a very standard German way that had been used for decades. Only to those in a backwater hanging out with people who don't know would think it was an offbeat method. Those exposed to sophisticated recording people would quickly understand that it is a standard approach.

You're certainly right in that I do not agree with those advocating a low rate structure.
Low rates ruin it for everyone. If one depends on low rates to attract business then I suggest the person get new clients who will pay a living wage. This plays in to my other suggestion that if those clients are not in your area, one has to move to a major recording center to make a real living in this business.

As far as taking advice from those not on GS, why would we do that when everyone, including Tony F., is here?

[huub]

In remote recording, sometimes it's not about doing it the right way, but just making sure there is something acceptable on tape.. Acceptable enough for a producer (or whoever hires you) not to notice and thus getting hired again.. This is not a business where you control every aspect of what's happening...

[joelpatterson]

You can't control every aspect of what's happening, but hopefully you're controlling what you do....

[Fuzzy Logic]

hey norsehorse didnt the mod remove your posts? i guess you dont mind bucking the system coming back with the same old agenda...

I read those silly shadow threads and he said a few things that started it all.
He said backups are a crutch and are for sissies. he also said why do you need a backup if you never use it meaning that if the master didnt die why should he buy a backup machine.

you seem to have turned it into another story.
i recommend that everyone read those threads for them selves before believing what norsehorse has to say about it.

you may agree or not agree but it will be your choice and not norsehorse's.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by Plush

In your example, we didn't record the organ record the "wrong" way. We recorded it a very standard German way that had been used for decades. Only to those in a backwater hanging out with people who don't know would think it was an offbeat method. Those exposed to sophisticated recording people would quickly understand that it is a standard approach.

I understood your post, Plush. I just happen to agree with both you AND Chris.

Also, spaced omnis or widely spaced omnis seem to be the de facto "right" way of recording organ. Yes, I know, not for you, but I happened to correspond with a number of engineers (some on the national level) before ever recording organ, and that was the answer across the board (you can also find it on GS, Plush excepted). Of course there are other ways, but this demonstrates that sometimes the widely agreed upon and widely used "right" way isn't the only way. I'm sure a large portion of this forum was thinking "what about the low end? - don't you need an omni to get those low notes?" when they heard how you recorded the session mentioned above, so please refrain from painting me like I'm coming out of left-field. I just happen to be confident enough to share. I'm not ashamed about living where I live and working with whom I work. If I can get over it, so should you. Back handed insults are getting old. Keep on keeping on.

Anyone else mix "right" and "wrong"? Most recently on the live scene, I've been taking the mics out of the hands of pop acappella soloists and running without monitors. It's been glooorious.

Huub, you've got a great point. Those certainly aren't my favorite types of shows though!

And of course, I suppose most of us have encounted mixes that sound "wrong" to us, but are just what to client wanted and therefore "right". (I'm mainly refering to the close-miked-and-drenched-in-reverb-sound favored by some ensemble directors. Ugh!)

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

I understood your post, Plush. I just happen to agree with both you AND Chris.

Also, spaced omnis or widely spaced omnis seem to be the de facto "right" way of recording organ. Yes, I know, not for you, but I happened to correspond with a number of engineers (some on the national level) before ever recording organ, and that was the answer across the board (you can also find it on GS, Plush excepted). Of course there are other ways, but this demonstrates that sometimes the widely agreed upon and widely used "right" way isn't the only way. I'm sure a large portion of this forum was thinking "what about the low end? - don't you need an omni to get those low notes?" when they heard how you recorded the session mentioned above, so please refrain from painting me like I'm coming out of left-field. I just happen to be confident enough to share. I'm not ashamed about living where I live and working with whom I work. If I can get over it, so should you. Back handed insults are getting old. Keep on keeping on.

Anyone else mix "right" and "wrong"? Most recently on the live scene, I've been taking the mics out of the hands of pop acappella soloists and running without monitors. It's been glooorious.

Huub, you've got a great point. Those certainly aren't my favorite types of shows though!

And of course, I suppose most of us have encounted mixes that sound "wrong" to us, but are just what to client wanted and therefore "right". (I'm mainly refering to the close-miked-and-drenched-in-reverb-sound favored by some ensemble directors. Ugh!)

It has been a long established axiom in music that there is no "right and wrong", only "works" and "doesn't work".

[pkautzsch]

As huub pointed out, most remote stuff is about actually getting something recorded at all, without the device crashing halfway through the show.
Once we've made sure we actually can record something, we can start to think about how we want it to sound.

The "right" way in remote recording is the way that has a useable result. That means some kind of redundancy - using a backup recorder, bringing more mics and stands than you think you'll need, and WAY more microphone cables than you think you'll need.
Having a plan is nice, having a backup plan is better.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

I understood your post, Plush. I just happen to agree with both you AND Chris.

Also, spaced omnis or widely spaced omnis seem to be the de facto "right" way of recording organ. Yes, I know, not for you, but I happened to correspond with a number of engineers (some on the national level) before ever recording organ, and that was the answer across the board (you can also find it on GS, Plush excepted). Of course there are other ways, but this demonstrates that sometimes the widely agreed upon and widely used "right" way isn't the only way. I'm sure a large portion of this forum was thinking "what about the low end? - don't you need an omni to get those low notes?" when they heard how you recorded the session mentioned above, so please refrain from painting me like I'm coming out of left-field. I just happen to be confident enough to share. I'm not ashamed about living where I live and working with whom I work. If I can get over it, so should you. Back handed insults are getting old. Keep on keeping on.

Anyone else mix "right" and "wrong"? Most recently on the live scene, I've been taking the mics out of the hands of pop acappella soloists and running without monitors. It's been glooorious.

Huub, you've got a great point. Those certainly aren't my favorite types of shows though!

And of course, I suppose most of us have encounted mixes that sound "wrong" to us, but are just what to client wanted and therefore "right". (I'm mainly refering to the close-miked-and-drenched-in-reverb-sound favored by some ensemble directors. Ugh!)

They weren't back handed insluts, Norse. I have always said that I disagree with your low ball rates as a business plan right up to your face. I think some choice nuggets of what you write are hallucinatory. Further, as you attempt to mollify me by claiming to understand what I am saying, (on matters technical or biz. philosophy) you consistently hose me by espousing, over and over, the very things that goofed up others just like you. You are typical. You're a contrairian.

Record it the wrong way?? If by that you mean you still got some sound even though there was a screw up, well OK. If you mean that one should start with some weird method (call it the NORSEHORSE IMPERATIVE) and claim that it is a way to push the envelope into a new breakthrough, well then, as I said, you are not innovative, you are merely typical of the already known species.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

The "right" way in remote recording is the way that has a useable result. That means some kind of redundancy - using a backup recorder, bringing more mics and stands than you think you'll need, and WAY more microphone cables than you think you'll need.
Having a plan is nice, having a backup plan is better.

Definitely concur with this. Not everyone in the forum is operating in this scene, but many of us are intimately familiar with it.

And as far as having the "right" rates. I stand by my view that what's "right" in one area can be "wrong" in another. And vice versa. (It's called "market".) I'm not the only one in the forum who is living proof of this.

Plush, I was mainly taking issue with the backwoods comment. Especially since my comments were informed by the fact that I'd consulted a number of engineers from up and down the east coast. Also, I've never had people get upset that they were being understood. Neither you nor I are speaking in code, so it shouldn't be difficult.

Cheers.

PS. If it seems I'm contrarian often, perhaps it's because I'm operating in a totally different scene than you? Different rules. Different rates. Different products. When I respond to a post with something along the lines of "yes, it can be done that way, but it can also be done this way", I'm never really saying anything revolutionary (though I'd be honored if you wanted to name an "approach" after me ), and other forum members can surely relate. It's not contrarian - it's pluralist. And it's pertinent to note that B. Maas, B. Garris, and R. Mays (and many more not on GS who have decades of experience) have concert rates similar to mine. Have you told them you don't like their concert rates? I'm not careless in my writing, because as I've mentioned before, I researched the market extensively and corresponded with a number of professional engineers before starting out. I got my info from the mouth of the horse(s), and I'm always up for learning more (especially in regards to gear and techniques - however, when it comes to business approaches, I and others have to carefully consider whether a given approach will help or hurt in our area).

[glissando]

I disagree with what Norse has to say a lot, but I think his discussion is valid. It seems like there is a lot of removing posts without stating reasons going on and switching threads. Also there is a lot of unfriendliness towards Norse because he won't bow down to some of you. There is nothing wrong with Norse's posts or his delivery. There is something very wrong with this forum. Too bad. it used to be good. Maybe it's time for a changing of the guard.

To the topic, yes there is a right and wrong way. The right way is when it turns out good. The wrong way is when it turns out bad. The rest is irrelevant.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by glissando

... Maybe it's time for a changing of the guard....

glissando
Gear Head

Join Date: May 2009

[RichS]

Some of this discussion reminds me of the rock guitarist that says "I don't read music, dude... it gets in the way of my craft."

I'm sorry, but you've got to "eat, drink, and sleep" the rules before you can break them. I'm all for experimentation or being able to adapt to difficult venues, but consistent success comes from knowing exactly why "doing it wrong" might work in a given situation... and that ability only comes from having a solid technique to begin with.

I work on the premise that a "bad day" should be a "98 out of 100%." Any mistakes should be imperceptible to even the above average listener. That's my goal when working as a performer or an engineer.

[Dale]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

PS. If it seems I'm contrarian

Condescending and self serving would be what I read from your well written verbiage.


glissando
good and bad are subjective, based on culture and education

[NorseHorse]

PM'ed.

In the meantime, I hope RichS and others aren't suggesting that I (or others) break the rules as a rule. That would be silly and reminds me of those kids in high school to simply rebelled to rebel. I support innovation, while attempting to benefit as much as possible from convention. When possible, I love to set up two pairs or two arrays at shows or sessions simply for comparison. For example: Schoeps CMTS 501 v. Crown SASS v. Rode NT5 on Piano

"There is no learning without listening." - CBA - 2009 - You can quote me on that.

I've had the pleasure of comparing mics on my own and also doing some listening session with another engineer. Those opportunities have been immensley helpful in helping me chose gear in situations where I need to hit the ground running. A strict "DO IT THIS WAY, and THIS WAY ONLY" prevents young engineers from truly learning and developing critical ears and prevents older engineers from paving new territory or improving.

[joelpatterson]

"Paving new territory..."? And put up a parking lot?

[glissando]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

glissando
Gear Head

Join Date: May 2009

Joel Patterson
Long in the Tooth

[Dale]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

PM'ed.

has anyone noticed how his avatar is of a man shushing everyone, ala a school principle controlling a meeting, while wearing headphones which means he is listening to something more important then you, his audience.