Nagra LB - DPA 4060 - Sound Sample of a Forest

[Gaston69]

Hello everybody,

Got yesterday from Amptec in Belgium the Nagra LB in order to try out this beautyful Swiss made stereo recorder. My first impressions are:

It's build like a tank (Aluminum NOT plastic).thumbsup
User friendly interface.thumbsup
Records on non moveble parts i.e. no hard disk that can crash. It records on it's internal 2 Gig memory or onto a compact flash card which is hot swapable.thumbsup
It's compact and a lot smaller then the VI however it does only 2 tracks!
It has a "Hold" switch which locks all switches i.e. it prevents you from changing settings by accident.thumbsup
It uses AA batteries and these will be charged if you connect it to the power supply, this is really an advantage as AA batteries are inexpensive compared to battery packs (check out the price for the battery pack of the Nagra VI for example).thumbsup
I have not recorded music but I went to the forest in order to see how the mic pre-amps sound like and recorded the forest and it's birds, I am impressed so far however need to record music in order to judge but I don't think I will be disappointed.
AES/EBU I/O so I can also hookup my Paintpot if I want to use a different mic preamp or a different DA converter.thumbsup
It records in different formats 16/24 Bits up to 192 Khz and does MPEG as well.thumbsup

It has the ability to edit your music/sound and send via bluetooth to your mobile phone, something I will probably never use but this recorder was designed for broadcasting etc.

Anyway my overall impression is that it's a very professional machine and I think I will keep it unless I will win the Lotto then I will buy the Nagra VI.

I have attached:
1.) Sound sample of the forest in my back yard using standard DPA SMK 4060 without pop caps i.e. you'll here noise from the wind however listen how 3D the sound field / panorama is. By the way because of wind I used a high pass filter (see attached print screen).

2.) Pictures of Nagra LB, Mic stand in the forest.

If you want to know more or understand how the Nagra LB works please download the user manual Nagra - Professional Audio

I am not endorsing Nagra neither is my review professional, just want to share my impressions about the Nagra LB.

Thanks to Peter Van Houtven at Amptec
Peter.VanHoutven@amptec.be
Amptec

Cheers,

Gaston

[videoteque]

Sounds great, if you have added a monkey or two, you could have said it was the Amazonia forest!!!

[Gaston69]

When listen carefully you'll hear a monkey in the back ground

[Plush]

Very nice work. Jungle-like and very good stereo effect.

Nagra=professional results

Buying the Nagra=Strong Move!!

[boojum]

Gaston, maudit! I am being pushed so close to getting the SMK4060. This recording is beautiful in its "imaging."

Is there traffic in the backgound or is there a stream/river? There is something. The bird songs are just great. Beautiful imaging, again.

Do you often record without the caps? Is the response flat without them? DPA cautions against using the 406x's without caps and I wonder is the 3dB boost that noticeable? If you could comment on that I would welcome your thoughts.

Thank you for the post. Curse you for the further enticement with the SMK4060.

[David Spearritt]

Lovely sound Gaston, but there is way too much noise in that setup for it to be useful for critical recording. I love the 4060's and want to use them for music, but they are just too noisy for top quality work. Nature recordings, especially, need a black noise floor to really give the goose bumps. Its the same with classical recording in a great acoustic. You need to hear the noise floor of the hall and not have it masked by hiss.

Beautiful recording, nonetheless.

[BrianHanke]

Sounds great! I'm very curious: how much of that background noise is hiss from the electronics and how much is the sound of the outdoors? I assume the wind that you EQed out also had a high frequency component that was left untouched?

[phil.]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Lovely sound Gaston, but there is way too much noise in that setup for it to be useful for critical recording. I love the 4060's and want to use them for music, but they are just too noisy for top quality work. Nature recordings, especially, need a black noise floor to really give the goose bumps. Its the same with classical recording in a great acoustic. You need to hear the noise floor of the hall and not have it masked by hiss.

Beautiful recording, nonetheless.

Well put David, I couldn't agree more.

Great Recording Gatson, but it would be difficult to use it for serious post production work due to the noise.

Would be great to hear the same forest ambience recorded with your 4006's and the LB for comparison.

Phil.

[Gaston69]

To All,

First of all thanks for the compliments.

I am aware of the noise produced by the 4060 but I don't think the noise are from the electronics but from not using windscreens at least that is what I hope.

What I will do tomorrow morning is I will go to the same spot and record with 4060 + windscreens and I will record with 4006 + windscreens.
Bare in mind the windscreens I use are the standard foam ones NOT a Rycote.

Can any of you advice how to make outdoor recordings with out the noise?

Gaston

[phil.]

Originally Posted by Gaston69

Can any of you advice how to make outdoor recordings with out the noise?

Gaston

Using a windshield in combination with a windjammer usually does the trick.
Also try to find a spot in the forest where wind doesn't build up on the day and bring an umbrella to block unwanted wind.

Looking forward to hearing the new samples.

Phil.

[phil.]

Originally Posted by Gaston69

I am aware of the noise produced by the 4060 but I don't think the noise are from the electronics but from not using windscreens at least that is what I hope.

Just listening to the sample again, I think the noise is not really a wind problem.

You'll probably hear a big difference in perceived noise floor when comparing both DPA pairs in this specific nature setting.

Phil.

[Gaston69]

Hello,

Last weekend I invited a friend of mine who is called Robert Bekkers and he is a guitarist (classical music however he can play the blues as well) with his wife Ann Ku (Pianist and composer) in order to join a BBQ party at my home. The moment I invited them I was not in the possession of the Nagra LB neither I was planning to do any recording over this weekend untill I got on Thursday the Nagra so when Robert arrived I asked if he wanted to play something for me so I could do a shoot out on the pre-amps of the Nagra etc etc. However we did not have a lot of time (guests were waiting at the BBQ party and I was supposed to do the cooking and grilling) and we did not have a venue to play/record so we toke the car and went to the church in my village however this was closed so we went to the next village where there is a church however also closed so by the third village (Hombourg) we found a church and recorded very quickly 2 takes. As you can see there are no headphones plugged in the Nagra, I forgot to bring with me the adapter mini Jack to TRS . So the recordings you are going to listen to is recorded without monitoring, everything toke less 20 minutes.
I put 2 samples (played 2 times) Sample A with DPA4060, Sample B with B&K 4006

Thanks to Robert Bekkers for playing some music.
Robert Bekkers, Dutch Guitarist

[David Spearritt]

Hi Gaston, its easy to hear which mics are which, noise again, but also the fuller omni and room response of the 4060's.

But there seems to be a sampling rate inconsistency. Sample A is lower by about a tone from sample B.

[Gaston69]

Dave,

Thanks I corrected it so both samples should have the same sample rate.

These DPA4060 are the new ones with 3 meter cable length and what I discovered is that the adaptors are also different then the original ones i.e. the old version has 3 capacitors and the new ones don't. I am not sure but I think I have more noise with the new ones however I need to do an A/B test/comparison.

Gaston

[boojum]

Gaston - lovely clips and yes, the 4060 is more open. The noise does not put me off as it is not heard when the music is playing.

I wonder if it would be a better comparison of the 4006's had the "nose cone" grids on. These re the most omni of their kit and would be the fairest comparison, if you have them.

Can you just pop into any church like that and record?

[Petrus]

I have used a pair of DPA 4060 for live chamber orchestra recordings with great results. The S/N ratios are about 70 dB including the ambient noise of the venue (peak - lowest RMS level). It seems that the noise levels of these little jewels is not the limiting factor in normal recording conditions. Nature recording is inherently different, as there is no real "ambient noise floor". For that reason mics with lowest possible noise are best, not miniatures.

Here is the thread:

DIY ONNO mic stand with carbon fiber

[Audiop]

I've done some outdoor recording with MKH8020 and MKH8040 and that is the limit IMO (10dBA and 13dBA). Prefereably the noise should be even lower.


/Peter

[David Spearritt]

Perhaps a bit of this technology will make it back to DPA:
Practical Multi-Field Microphones - Brüel & Kjær
http://www.bksv.com/sites/Multifield.aspx

and they can make a new 4060 with a low noise floor. Then it will be an exciting advancement.

[ghellquist]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Perhaps a bit of this technology will make it back to DPA:
Practical Multi-Field Microphones - Brüel & Kjær
http://www.bksv.com/sites/Multifield.aspx

and they can make a new 4060 with a low noise floor. Then it will be an exciting advancement.

David. I believe you are a bit off here. The 4003/4006/4006TL are derivatives of the 1/4 " measurement mics. ( The capsule is proudly marked with Bruel & Kjaer ). These mics has a noise floor that is quite acceptable.

The 4060 which has been discussed is something completely difference. The diaphragm size is much smaller, more of the size of a match head.

// Gunnar

[trompetfreak]

Nice samples! both forest and church...
I agree with all on the noise floor thing, but the 4060's do sound more musical.

I might do the same trick with a very dynamic orchestra I'm about to record.

[rumleymusic]

I would think it would be desirable to keep the grid attached on the 4060 for the extra high end boost during recording. It could be attenuated in post which would also lower the hiss from the mic.

I have heard great quality and very quiet recordings with the 4060 and 4061's, though a little care is needed and I don't think treating them as your average omni main pair is the best way to go in critical recordings.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

The 4003/4006/4006TL are derivatives of the 1/4 " measurement mics. ( The capsule is proudly marked with Bruel & Kjaer ). These mics has a noise floor that is quite acceptable.

Hi Gunnar, surely you mean derived from the 1/2" B&K capsules. My point was that some serious achievement has happened with reducing the noise in very small diaphram capsules (1/4"), and if this could generally continue, we might see a lower noise 4060.

[ghellquist]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Hi Gunnar, surely you mean derived from the 1/2" B&K capsules. My point was that some serious achievement has happened with reducing the noise in very small diaphram capsules (1/4"), and if this could generally continue, we might see a lower noise 4060.

Oops. Not used to inches. You are totally correct.
The mics derived from 1/4 " is of course the 4004 / 4007.

Gunnar

[didier.brest]

The higher noise floor from DPA4060 here comes mainly from a higher level in 3kHz-12kHz band, up to 8 dB at 7 kHz, rather than from the mic noise floor. Note also that the 4060 take level is near 1 dB louder. I applied an EQ boost at the 4006 take to compensate for this. By the way, I prefer the 4006.

[Gaston69]

Finally I was able to record a classical orchestra with the Nagra LB - DPA4060.

Back ground noise is from the air conditioning.

[boojum]

Delicious! You had a good hall. Man, I love these little mics. Grids on or off???

[Gaston69]

Grid's off.

It's not a concert hall but a conference hall however it doesn't sound to bad but I would prefer a good concert hall instead.

Anyway this sample I posted was to demonstrate the equipment used which is very compact and battery powered.

[José Santos]

Gaston,

since you're in Belgium, maybe you've read this Le Nagra LB est enfin lÃ* ! - Les Cahiers de l'ACME (yes, it's in french). They talk of a mk-II version of the LB with less editing capabilities, but with Time Code. Planned for the end of 2009.
BTW How much did you pay for yours? I got a quote of 2.380€. And I started dreaming about it...

thanks,

José Santos

[Gaston69]

Hello Jose,

I bought mine for 2230,- Euros by Amptec however it's a B-stock but therefore 400,- Euros cheaper.


Get in touch with Peter.VanHoutven@amptec.be he might give you a good deal.

Regards,

Gaston

[José Santos]

Hello Gaston,

Thank you very much for the tip, it's really kind of you. I'm sorry to correct you, but doesn't that make a price difference of 150-euros, and not 400?

Pricewise what shocks me a little, it's not the differences in euro countries but between europe and the USA. The Nagra VI is USD7800 (5550 €) in the US vs. 6950 € (USD 9750!!!) here in France.

Anyway, thanks again and have a nice day

José