My Sync has Sunk -- Big Ben & My Issues with Sure-Lock

[Kooster]

Last week on a Good Morning America shoot the video truck I was feeding audio to had a sync problem. I have the Apogee Big Ben on my truck which is supposed to seamlessly switch to internal sync if there is a problem then revert back to the original sync once the original source is ok.

Apogee calls this process Sure-Lock and is one of the reasons I bought the unit. Much to my dismay when the sync issue happened the Big Ben did nothing!! (other than stop) causing all of the equipment to also stop. WTF!!!
Back at the shop I tried various sync sources Black, Word, AES, feeding the Big Ben with similar results from all. It just stops. On an all digital truck this is a disaster. I had been flying without a net for 2 years now and didn't realize it.

I called Apogee and went thru the unit to see if any of the internal jumpers were set wrong. They were not. The tech said he would transfer me to engineering as he could not help me. Once transfered, I hit voicemail hell. No one ever contacted me. I have called many time since and have never talked to anyone human in engineering.
Asking around I have found 3 other users who have had the same issue. I have yet to find anyone who could tell me the Sure-Lock actually works. Another call to Apogee tech support with the information that I was the not the only one with the problem, they sheepishly confessed they were aware of the problem all along!!! And as of now NO FIX for it. This is outrageous. Apogee continues to advertise the Big Ben and continues to tout Sure-Lock even though they know it does not work.

I asked if I could send the unit in and was told don't bother. There was nothing they could do. How about giving me my money back!

We all know how important sync is in Remote Recording and how working with various video trucks you must use the sync they give you. Just prey they don't have a problem with theirs. If you have a Big Ben you might be sunk.tutt

[Indrestudios]

Hey Kooster,

My Big Ben does exactly the same thing. I first noticed it on a video shoot where we we're locked to the video truck's black. Something happened on their end, black went away, and Big Ben freaked out. Luckily, this was in the afternoon during check, and we flipped to internal and decided to cut our losses and only reference their TC.

Back at our shop I fiddled and fiddled and finally found a workaround. It seems that if you pull the external clock ONCE - the unit freaks out, but if you reconnect it (let Big Ben lock up), then and pull it AGAIN it does actually flip over as it's supposed to.

So lately, if we have to chase someone else's black, I just do this dance when we connect up their source. Connect it, pull it, connect it up again, pull it - confirm that Ben will flip to internal, connect it again.

You're right, this is far from the "seamless switchover" & "Sure-lock" advertised by Apogee. Maybe if enough folks speak up Apogee will start listening?

-Michael

[Remoteness]

Great work around Michael.

Well, I plan to keep this as a sticky for a while so maybe someone at Apogee will take note make their claim right.

[LeMauce]

Originally Posted by Indrestudios

Back at our shop I fiddled and fiddled and finally found a workaround. It seems that if you pull the external clock ONCE - the unit freaks out, but if you reconnect it (let Big Ben lock up), then and pull it AGAIN it does actually flip over as it's supposed to.

Holy frickin smoke. I had the same probs as you guys and returned the unit. If I know that this "workaround" solve the problem I give it a shot. Still its a really pain in the bottom part to get a "bug" to work.

[John Willett]

A good alternative may be the Audio Design SyncroGenius.

It has "SoftLock" (which Audio Design perfected in the early 1990's) - basically doing what "Sure Lock" is supposed to be doing.

If the SyncroGenius is being locked to external and external fails it will seamlessly become the master and keep everything going in sync. - but more - when and if the external comes back on, the SyncroGenius will seamlessly go back into lock with external. Any small drift that may have happened while external was lost will be corrected seamlessly.

ANd lots more..... (details and specs on the link above).

I understand they can loan units to try.

This is an excellent company with extremely high quality products at amazingly reasonable prices - I have several of their products and highly recommend them.

[Remoteness]

Here are a few thread links for your assessment:

alternative to Digidesign SYNC I/O

The battle of the Video Black to Word Clock Units

Antelope Isochrone OCX-V... anyone?

I’d like to bring up the fact that we have had great success with the Brainstorm DCD-8.
Like I’ve said before, we don't leave home without it; it's bullet proof!

It extracts Word from all sorts of digital audio (AES, ADAT, SPDIF and FW) and SD or HD video

The DCD8 also can generate multiple rates simultaneously.
It distributes word out of plenty of spigots.
It also can analyze the clock.
This box can even convert and/or route AES, ADAT, SPDIF and FW.
Any audio input can be routed and re-clocked to any audio output.

The optional VSG-4 video sync generator provides two SD and two HD feeds.
NTSC and PAL sync can be generated at the same time to each SD outputs.
Various HDTV tri-level sync formats can be sent (two at a time) to each of the HD outputs.

The video generator can be locked internally or externally via any WC, audio or video reference.

This IS a very sweet box for sure.

[Kooster]

I just tried Michael's work around and lo and behold IT WORKS!! Thanks I feel much better knowing the Sure-Lock actually works even if you have to kick it to make it do so.
Kooster

[Indrestudios]

Good to hear that it worked Kooster.

So I'm guessing that probably 95% of Big Ben users never chase an external source? I know these are installed all the time as the master clock for studios, live digital consoles, etc.

Of that remaining 5% of us that need to lock to external devices, there's probably only a select few that have ever lost that source, and put Sure-Lock to the test...and exposed a pretty major design flaw in the unit.

It sounds like Apogee is well aware of this problem, I'd like to think that someone there might step up and do the right thing to fix it. Firmware update maybe?

This forum is pretty far reaching, I'm sure someone knows someone at Apogee who could shed some light on this.

-Michael

[kheftel]

This thread makes me never want to buy a big ben, unless I'm NEVER going to sync to someone external. Apogee, do something about this!!

[0VU]

There was a mention of faults (albeit perhaps slightly different) with SureLock in the Sound On Sound review in August 2005. These were raised with Apogee at the time so it isn't like they weren't aware that they had problems.


I've found the Rosendahl Nanosyncs HD and dCS 992 and 995 to be very stable and reliable. Also, the Brainstorm stuff I've used has always done exactly what it claimed it would.

[Remoteness]

Wow, August 2005 is a very long time ago.

Don't you think they should at least let everyone know about the workable workaround Michael found?

You would think since 2005 they would have been fiddling at least as much as Michael did to find a solution for us Remotesters on location shoots.

[kheftel]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Wow, August 2005 is a very long time ago.

Agreed!

[HughH]

Hello,
We own two Big Bens and I've been disgusted with Apogee's false advertising followed by a refusal to fix it. I will see one of our BBs in a few weeks and look forward to trying the workaround.
Hugh

[John Willett]

You could always try the SyncroGenius as I suggested earlier.

(I have no commercial connection with Audio Design, just a very happy user of various items of theirs)

[klaukholm]

This business certainly made me feel pretty good about the decision to buy a Brainstorm DCD-8.

[Audiop]

Well obviously IT IS a dirty world.. and I will never buy Apogee!


/Peter

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

This business certainly made me feel pretty good about the decision to buy a Brainstorm DCD-8.

I hear you loud and clear.

The DCD-8 has a light on the front panel that starts to flash when there's a loss of the main reference and changes to the alternate reference.

It's a seamless switch over from the main to the alternate reference.
The alternate reference can either be the internal clock in the DCD-8 or another external reference.

Consider referring to the DCD-8 manual: http://www.brainstormtime.com/pdf/UM_DCD8_210.pdf

[PMoshay]

i have found that no matter what a company claims, i always reboot my system when switching anything to do with digital.
I turn all my units off, then back on at the new rate/sync.
Yes it sucks......... but it sucks less than freewheeling for a few hours.

BTW, my 2 RME pieces are the only ones that seem to auto-lock well consistently..... but i still re-boot

i've also solved much of my digital problems by getting a SSL analog console, it also syncs perfectly with my analog ears.

[huub]

I rented a big ben recently to sync the PA system to our truck (to get 2 madi splits)..
This one had no video option, so we fed truck wordclock to it, and gave an output to the PA, worked fine, but... the surelock thing did not work at all.. Not with the described workaround, not at all.. Although, according to the manual, it should work...

[yoink]

It seems to have become an increasingly pervasive fact with electronics these days, cheap, expensive, or otherwise; features are promoted and advertised before products come to market. These features are released incomplete or non-functional and the company won't admit they never work because they appeal to such a small market segment that it's not even worth dealing with, still they continue to advertise these features so that those who buy the units consider them added value. Value that is, essentially, vapourous.

It is especially true for products like clock generators that are marketed, to many users, as snake oil for their single unit of converters.

[fossaree]

i've just came to this thread accidentally and I can't hide my indignity with such an absurd behavior from a well known company as Apogee .

[kheftel]

Marketing and advertising should not be allowed to flat-out LIE... It sucks.

[Indrestudios]

How about a concentrated GS ambush, or should I say brainstorming session, at Apogee's AES booth to shed some light on this problem?

I'm going to be up there on Sunday and would love to get their take on this Sure-Lock issue.

-MC

[Remoteness]

I'm with you on this on Michael!!!

Who else is wants in?

Originally Posted by Indrestudios

How about a concentrated GS ambush, or should I say brainstorming session, at Apogee's AES booth to shed some light on this problem?

I'm going to be up there on Sunday and would love to get their take on this Sure-Lock issue.

-MC

[HughH]

I'm in! I'm quite annoyed with our two units that don't perform as advertised. My first day at the show is the 11th.
Hugh

[klaukholm]

I am curious what Apogee's response was to this at the convention?

[Fuzzy Logic]

im also curious about what they said.
tell us more.

[theoryinmotion]

Glad I use a Lucid Genx192. While it doesn't do the "surelock" which to me is a bit of marketing and not fully as functional as they claim it is in the BB, when the Genx192 looses synch it instantly flips to internal at the nearest supported sample rate. As long as you operate in a multiple of 44.1 or 48 then you are golden.

I have never had an issue with my genx192, plus when I had a BB in my studio, I hated when I would want to change sample rates of session to say A/B the original or demo of a source. I hate the BB ld interface which slows things down. I love with the genx192 when I want to switch a sample rate, I just turn a knob. No selecting through menus. Further, I love having 2 banks of outputs. over 14 seperate word clock outputs both BNC, s/pdif, and AES/EBU.

Before purchasing I called and talked to lucid support....frrom what I gather the genx192 does have better jitter specs and is more trnasparent than the BB. Apogeee makes some mightly big claims of being jitter free which is impossible. The guys at lucid are down to earth, no their stuff when it comes to proaudio and word clock, and I think you will get the real skinny on their products and how they compair with the industry.

I know they tested the BB and Genx192 side by side using the Stanford method, same day, same cables, same testing equipment, and the Genx192 had better specs at every sample rate but one.

[SmooveG]

Does the Genx 192 do vary speed? This is what make the BB attractive to me. Kind of like tape