Mic'ing a bluegrass quintet

[boojum]

I will be mic'ing a bluegrass quintet down the road. They are: Dobro, guitar, mando, fiddle and bass. All sing but the bass player.

I was thinking that spot mics on each instrument and cards for each singer's vocals plus an omni pair in A-B to glue it together. Maybe the omni's in a Jecklin disc array.

Spots: DPA 4060's; bass SM57
Vocals: Schoeps CMC64's
Omni's: DPA 4006 TL's

I'd run the spots and vocals through a 788T, and the rest through yoked 722's. All the recorders would be time clock synched from a master 722.

I think this would work, especially in a good venue. But if you guys can tell me what is wrong with this I would appreciate it a lot. Any advice is welcome.

Cheers

[bishopthomas]

That sounds like an excellent plan. Maybe take some cardioid mics for the room if you're not familiar with it.

[Teddy Ray]

Id say do it with a variation of the old timey way...have them stand around a Blumlein Pair of 8's...maybe a spot mic for the bass..4060 works well for that.

with them stepping up the mic for the solo..

I get great results that way. Ill post samples if I can get permission to.

[boojum]

Teddy, what you say has merit. But we are 3,000 miles and a culture away from that way. Some BG out here do the old time way. These fellows do not. They sit or stand in a semi-circle: Dobro, guitar, mando, fiddle with the bass behind the guitar/mando. That is how they work. I am not sure I culd get them to do it that way. I have thought about it. So easy. Just a pair of Mk8's and I am in business.

Oh, well. Every day is not Sunday.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by boojum

Teddy, what you say has merit. But we are 3,000 miles and a culture away from that way. Some BG out here do the old time way. These fellows do not. They sit or stand in a semi-circle: Dobro, guitar, mando, fiddle with the bass behind the guitar/mando. That is how they work. I am not sure I culd get them to do it that way. I have thought about it. So easy. Just a pair of Mk8's and I am in business.

Oh, well. Every day is not Sunday.

didnt know what the aesthetic was, but a lot of groups down here in the heart of bluegrass country still work that way..well, id say about half, anyway.. I just worked with a great, great group called Chatham County Line not too long ago.... here are some pics from the gig(btw, check that group out..they are very, very, very good..a slice of old timey bluegrass, a bit of modern singer/songwriter thrown in..amazing..have gotten all kinds of acclaim)

the setup was one 414 in fig 8 mode with 2 184 flankers..sounded great!

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

the setup was one 414 in fig 8 mode with 2 184 flankers..sounded great!

Which 414 is that (xls or xlii)? I use a single xlii with my own group for live sound. Maybe I'll try a couple of SDCs flanks as well.

Was that setup used for live/foh, recording, or both?

Thanks.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Which 414 is that (xls or xlii)? I use a single xlii with my own group for live sound. Maybe I'll try a couple of SDCs flanks as well.

Was that setup used for live/foh, recording, or both?

Thanks.

thatd be the XLS. That was used for both. It turned out so well that I intend to use it from here on out.

[Teddy Ray]

couple more..

[bishopthomas]

Nothing on the bass? I love that setup and can't wait to try it out.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Nothing on the bass? I love that setup and can't wait to try it out.

I think I see pickups on the bridge, and a wire trailing the bass -- DI??

[bishopthomas]

Oh, yes, good eye.

[Jimbo]

TRB: what is the spacing/angle on those Neumanns?

Thanks.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I think I see pickups on the bridge, and a wire trailing the bass -- DI??

Nope...I believe he was using that to tune up..it was not used in the concert.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

TRB: what is the spacing/angle on those Neumanns?

Thanks.

That is a NOS-ish setup... around 85 deg, 40cm..

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Nothing on the bass? I love that setup and can't wait to try it out.

thanks, bt. It works really, really well. I am very happy with it.

[nicculus311]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

didnt know what the aesthetic was, but a lot of groups down here in the heart of bluegrass country still work that way..well, id say about half, anyway.. I just worked with a great, great group called Chatham County Line not too long ago.... here are some pics from the gig(btw, check that group out..they are very, very, very good..a slice of old timey bluegrass, a bit of modern singer/songwriter thrown in..amazing..have gotten all kinds of acclaim)

the setup was one 414 in fig 8 mode with 2 184 flankers..sounded great!

i was wondering if you use the 414 in fig 8 to get the crowd, or is there a different advantage to using it in the fig 8?

[bitman]

I used M/S one time and it worked well. The bluegrass group like it.
They can be very picky.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by nicculus311

i was wondering if you use the 414 in fig 8 to get the crowd, or is there a different advantage to using it in the fig 8?

because of the nulls...

nulls= less bleed from the wedges/other instruments..

[boojum]

I'd like to resurrect this thread. When first posted it got a lot of marvelous posts by Teddy Ray but unfortunately they did not address the question I asked, namely how to mic a BG quintet selecting from 4061 (3), CMC64 (4) CMC68 (1), 4006 TL (2) and SM57 (3). I also have a Busman Blumlein ribbon I'd like to stick in front of this group just to see how it works.


The venue is the sanctuary of a local church, high ceilinged and deep. I can post pics if that would help, in fact I will.

I have a recorder which can take 8 channels and may be able to time-code link another two channels with a like recorder (722 > 788t).

Anyone who thinks they can contribute to this solution please chime in.

Thanks.

[t_chance]

I would spot the instruments with the CMC64s.
Go direct on the bass.
Ribbon for the vox.
Space the 4006s in front of the group.
Put the 4061s out in the room.

[GZsound]

I've been a fan of "less is more" when doing bluegrass.

SDC's on each instrument and dynamics on vocals. I use an LR Baggs Para DI on the bass if it has a pickup and a "stuff" mic if it doesn't.

Much easier to mix down with fewer mics and there will still be enough bleed to capture a natural sound. I'm not sure what room mics would add to the final result.

Telling a band that is used to individual mics that they have to learn how to work a single LD mic can be a disaster. It requires a lot of practice.

[t_chance]

Originally Posted by GZsound

I've been a fan of "less is more" when doing bluegrass.

SDC's on each instrument and dynamics on vocals. I use an LR Baggs Para DI on the bass if it has a pickup and a "stuff" mic if it doesn't.

Much easier to mix down with fewer mics and there will still be enough bleed to capture a natural sound. I'm not sure what room mics would add to the final result.

Telling a band that is used to individual mics that they have to learn how to work a single LD mic can be a disaster. It requires a lot of practice.

KISS

A big AMEN


A set of dynamics on the vocals can help if they cannot "mix themselves" because they are too far apart and can't hear each other. Then they may need monitors too. Let's not go down that road if we don't have to. Keeping them tight together so they can set their mix is the best.


Nice to have the room for the natural reverb and also a good exercise for future reference.


Can be worse with the instrumental dance to the LDC than the vox.

[boojum]

Thanks for the input. These fellas do not do the mic dance that is traditional in BG groups. They arrange in a semi-circle, from left to right: Dobro, mando, guitar, bass, fiddle. They work standing or sitting in this array.

The less tracks the better in mixing, yes. I do not have to use all the ones I get.

I am curious why the CMC64's on the individual instruments and not the 4061's. I had not thought of this approach.

I will take the church sanctuary pics today and post them.

Thanks for your help so far. I would really like this to be a stellar session. Don't we all!

[boojum]

OK, here are four pictures of the sanctuary of this local church. I have been given a free hand by the church for recording. The pastor is very nice. And the BG group is getting it together, slowly.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by GZsound

I've been a fan of "less is more" when doing bluegrass.

SDC's on each instrument and dynamics on vocals. I use an LR Baggs Para DI on the bass if it has a pickup and a "stuff" mic if it doesn't.

Much easier to mix down with fewer mics and there will still be enough bleed to capture a natural sound. I'm not sure what room mics would add to the final result.

Telling a band that is used to individual mics that they have to learn how to work a single LD mic can be a disaster. It requires a lot of practice.

Agreed, they use individual mics when they play. One gig is acoustic, it is a small saloon, but the other saloons and festivals are always individually mic'ed.

The spots on the instruments, a DI on the bass, Blumleiin for the vox and 4006's for room sound. The three 4061's for ambience, too, well that might be a bit much. If SD does their C-link upgrade soon enough this will be a walk in the park as I can do the 12 channels.

Mixing will be fun. But I remember TR advising to do just one channel for a year before getting into multi-channels and that was some good advice. I needed some practice so I could screw up multi-channel. LOL

Thanks all for your help so far. thumbsup

[boojum]

NB - I've got a pair of Peluso CEMC6's, too. Cardioids. I found them a bit bright, but perhaps they could fit in with the CMC64's??

[t_chance]

Originally Posted by boojum

NB - I've got a pair of Peluso CEMC6's, too. Cardioids. I found them a bit bright, but perhaps they could fit in with the CMC64's??

The reason I opted out with the 4061's is that I'm not experienced with them close micing, ecception being grand pianos.
If you feel the Pelusos are too bright, just keep them off of the mando and fiddle. They will shine with the correct placement on the dobro and gtr.

[GZsound]

The reverb of the building may be a problem, but with individual mics it should be just fine.

Having everything on individual tracks will make it much easier to see on mixdown if the room mics add anything to the mix. I will guess they don't.

Most bluegrass is pretty dry with not a lot of effects on it.

Three weeks ago I ran sound for a four piece bluegrass band in a church that had so much reverb the FOH mix was pretty much mush. But because I used individual mics the recording came out sounding pretty nice.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by GZsound

The reverb of the building may be a problem, but with individual mics it should be just fine.

Having everything on individual tracks will make it much easier to see on mixdown if the room mics add anything to the mix. I will guess they don't.

Most bluegrass is pretty dry with not a lot of effects on it.

Three weeks ago I ran sound for a four piece bluegrass band in a church that had so much reverb the FOH mix was pretty much mush. But because I used individual mics the recording came out sounding pretty nice.

Mark, good point. I do think that spot mic'ing these guys is a must. I can throw away what I do not want. But I want to be able to make that decision when I am mixing. The room does well for voice.

I will start with spots and the Blumlein for vox. I am torn between using the 4061's as spots and the CMC64's. The 4061's would be on the instruments and pretty dry and neutral. The CMC64's add a bit more color.

Hopefully this will be a days long process with the opportunity to fine-tune the mic'iing. If not, . . . I'll alwaus have the Blumlein track.