There is no "right" or "wrong" way of doing something until it's a mistake!

[Remoteness]

I mean, I have captured plenty of recordings that sounded pretty awesome even though many of us would have said, it was not the right way to do it.

How about you folks?

We can even take this to another level - I've designed and built thngs that are far from the normal mindset, but worked well for me...

Is there really a "right" and "wrong" way of doing something if the end result comes out first-rate?

Put away your slide-rulers and chime in!

[PlugHead]

Well,

There's the school of "my way or the highway"!

Kidding aside, I like having a plan, but - experimentation is the key to knowledge. I've found the more times I'm in a sticky situation are the times I learn the most.

The school of life can be harsh sometimes, but - it also teaches us valuable lessons that a classroom or hands-off environment can never provide...

[Jim vanBergen]

In the world of live remotes, I have been stuck with ALL kinds of horrific mic placement, mic choices, etc that I would never want to use as a signal path in the studio.

Most of them turned out quite well for the final product. It was a shock at first, then I thought, "what the hell, do the best you can do all the time, and mix it like there's no second chance". Not everything is perfect, but I find I'm not polishing turds, you know what I mean?

For the people who turned to a '58 for a lead vocal in the studio, they learned that a super expensive mic is not always the best choice, right? Sometimes less really is more. We can all learn new things, and sometimes we have to unlearn what we know.

Just adding my $0.02...

JvB

[mixedupsteve]

I did an Earth Day event recently and towards the end a rock band came on and all we had left for drum overheads were 58s. Sounded great.

And Steve, the Patent system of the US was put in place to encourage people to design things and change the design of things. It's a good thing!!

[joelpatterson]

I try to impress on everyone who interns for me: there is very little in the way of "standards" or "rulebooks" to guide you. Every decision you make, about everything, is pretty much a subjective choice... which mic to use, where to put it, how much gain, settings on the safety compressor?

I like to think this is "different" from other fields, maybe yes, maybe no, but I have to believe that there's a "right" way to mix portland cement and lime and sand together to build a brick wall, it's not all contingent on what venue the brick wall is performing at, how many players in the brick wall, how big is the brick wall's drumkit....

It's all about results, and recipes and formulae won't ever get you where you need to go.

[Enginearing]

i rekon the result is the most important factor... there are often all sorts of ways to achieve them, but rather than being right or wrong, I weigh up options based on what would be appropriate for the given situation, and then make a decision based on effort/cost etc required, Vs end result.
its always important not to lose the big picture...
WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE?
is the one question that needs to be asked while weighing up all the factors we encounter.

as long as something is safe, effective and efficient i'm happy to roll with it.

one of the best rules i go by is the golden rule...
The man with the gold make the rules..
IE whoever's paying the cheque should have final say... by all means pitch in with your 2c but remember the chain of command and don't talk over the chief.

(sometimes I don't even use a slide rule....)

[Corran]

I find myself writing up detailed plans about mic choice, preamps, placement, etc. etc. on all my major jobs, but then 99% of the time all this goes out the window when I get to the venue.

I suppose there are some definite no-no's, but in general everything is subjective. But of course one way or another might get you a better result, but a lot of times (here at least) there is no extensive mic checks and stuff.

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by Corran

I find myself writing up detailed plans about mic choice, preamps, placement, etc. etc. on all my major jobs, but then 99% of the time all this goes out the window when I get to the venue.

I suppose there are some definite no-no's, but in general everything is subjective. But of course one way or another might get you a better result, but a lot of times (here at least) there is no extensive mic checks and stuff.

This is a lot of what I deal with too...and usually it turns out ok. I will be experimenting this weekend with the pair of MK319's I just acquired set up as room mics and put my usual room mics (414's) on the guitar cabinets (as well as a 57) to see how it comes out...hopefully it doesn't suck.

[chris319]

It's very simple. There's the gearslutz.com-Remote-Possibilities-in-Acoustic-Music-&-Location-Recording way, and there's the wrong way

[rumleymusic]

experimentation is the key to knowledge

That can work backwards also. Knowledge being the key to experimentation. I believe there are techniques that "Just Work". And that should be the starting point for experimentation. A person should not jump into calculus before learning how to add, and great achievements in any field are usually stemmed from what has already been accomplished.

I can say, however, that my competition will always and have always been doing it the wrong way. (unless you know better)

[Plush]

Originally Posted by chris319

It's very simple. There's the gearslutz.com-Remote-Possibilities-in-Acoustic-Music-&-Location-Recording way, and there's the wrong way

Certainly you are correct.

The reason it is correct is that the people already made the mistakes and now they are giving their advice so that you can avoid the mistakes.

Or just make up anything without guidance. Then try it. That is the idea of some people here. They'll get a sound. It's just that the sound they will get won't be anywhere close to optimum.

People get paid for optimum and take pride in exceeding optimum and aiming towards capturing transcendental sound. That's when all the emotion of the performance is captured as well as the sound.

[huub]

In remote recording, sometimes it's not about doing it the right way, but just making sure there is something acceptable on tape.. Acceptable enough for a producer (or whoever hires you) not to notice and thus getting hired again.. This is not a business where you control every aspect of what's happening...

[joelpatterson]

You can't control every aspect of what's happening, but hopefully you're controlling what you do....

[NorseHorse]

Anyone else mix "right" and "wrong"? Most recently on the live scene, I've been taking the mics out of the hands of pop acappella soloists and running without monitors. It's been glooorious.

Huub, you've got a great point. Those certainly aren't my favorite types of shows though!

And of course, I suppose most of us have encounted mixes that sound "wrong" to us, but are just what to client wanted and therefore "right". (I'm mainly refering to the close-miked-and-drenched-in-reverb-sound favored by some ensemble directors. Ugh!)

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Anyone else mix "right" and "wrong"? Most recently on the live scene, I've been taking the mics out of the hands of pop acappella soloists and running without monitors. It's been glooorious.

Huub, you've got a great point. Those certainly aren't my favorite types of shows though!

And of course, I suppose most of us have encounted mixes that sound "wrong" to us, but are just what to client wanted and therefore "right". (I'm mainly refering to the close-miked-and-drenched-in-reverb-sound favored by some ensemble directors. Ugh!)

It has been a long established axiom in music that there is no "right and wrong", only "works" and "doesn't work".

[pkautzsch]

As huub pointed out, most remote stuff is about actually getting something recorded at all, without the device crashing halfway through the show.
Once we've made sure we actually can record something, we can start to think about how we want it to sound.

The "right" way in remote recording is the way that has a useable result. That means some kind of redundancy - using a backup recorder, bringing more mics and stands than you think you'll need, and WAY more microphone cables than you think you'll need.
Having a plan is nice, having a backup plan is better.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

The "right" way in remote recording is the way that has a useable result. That means some kind of redundancy - using a backup recorder, bringing more mics and stands than you think you'll need, and WAY more microphone cables than you think you'll need.
Having a plan is nice, having a backup plan is better.

Definitely concur with this. Not everyone in the forum is operating in this scene, but many of us are intimately familiar with it.

[RichS]

Some of this discussion reminds me of the rock guitarist that says "I don't read music, dude... it gets in the way of my craft."

I'm sorry, but you've got to "eat, drink, and sleep" the rules before you can break them. I'm all for experimentation or being able to adapt to difficult venues, but consistent success comes from knowing exactly why "doing it wrong" might work in a given situation... and that ability only comes from having a solid technique to begin with.

I work on the premise that a "bad day" should be a "98 out of 100%." Any mistakes should be imperceptible to even the above average listener. That's my goal when working as a performer or an engineer.

[big country]

Originally Posted by RichS

Some of this discussion reminds me of the rock guitarist that says "I don't read music, dude... it gets in the way of my craft."

I'm sorry, but you've got to "eat, drink, and sleep" the rules before you can break them. I'm all for experimentation or being able to adapt to difficult venues, but consistent success comes from knowing exactly why "doing it wrong" might work in a given situation... and that ability only comes from having a solid technique to begin with.

I work on the premise that a "bad day" should be a "98 out of 100%." Any mistakes should be imperceptible to even the above average listener. That's my goal when working as a performer or an engineer.

being of some what of dude status or can relate to dude
sound is frequencies not a letter

imagine if you played by frequency

how much simpler would it be ?

dude ,you would be left with nothing but facts no theory

imagine all the cool formulas one could invent

is there more than 12 ?
maybe

ok A plus b equals ?

try this one 20 plus 220 equals ?

tell me whats easyer ?

[Remoteness]

I started this thread to discuss the fact that plenty of good sounding recordings were created even though many of us would have said, it was not recorded the right way.

I wanted to find out what you folks thought of this interesting situation.

The factual question was, "Is there really a "right" and "wrong" way of doing something if the end result comes out first-rate?"

So, I now edited and deleted the posts that were off-topic to this discussion.
Please consider my wish to keep this on-topic.

Let us get back to having a wonderful time around here.
Stirring up the pot should be done in the kitchen and not in the Remote... forum.

If you disagree with this idea you don't want the forum shine.

Stay on topic and we will all win!

[BrianHanke]

I think this topic is an interesting one and I'd like to add my two cents.

Pretty much the only thing I ever record is classical solo piano, so naturally that's what I'm most interested in and what I have the most experience with.

The conventional wisdom says that you need to have a very large hall with mics set fairly far away to get a good sound. I actually don't agree with that. Many of my favorite piano recordings ever were done using close-micing. Gould preferred a close perspective and Horowitz's (great-sounding!) last albums were recorded in his living room.

Many people say that this is the "right" way to record jazz, but "wrong" for classical. However, I have found that wonderful results can be achieved using what is for some reason an unpopular approach!

[RichS]

Originally Posted by big country

being of some what of dude status or can relate to dude
sound is frequencies not a letter

imagine if you played by frequency

how much simpler would it be ?

dude ,you would be left with nothing but facts no theory

Dude,
I have perfect pitch and also ace'd my theory exams... what's your point?

PS. Sorry all... wasn't trying to hijack... just couldn't resist answering this. ; )

[big country]

Originally Posted by RichS

Dude,
I have perfect pitch and also ace'd my theory exams... what's your point?

PS. Sorry all... wasn't trying to hijack... just couldn't resist answering this. ; )

mind us where Ideas come from


theory is great ...

[aracu]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

The factual question was, "Is there really a "right" and "wrong" way of doing something if the end result comes out first-rate?"

There are many different approaches, but there are too many variables in
actual recording situations for a "way of recording" to be either right or
wrong, which I think Steve might be implying with his question. If the
recording comes out well, it is absurd to consider the recording technique
wrong. All the most well established recording techniques have been
criticized. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be studied and understood
as well as possible.

[Remoteness]

Bingo!

Exactly where I was coming from.

If it's a mistake it doesn't matter if it was right or wrong!

Originally Posted by aracu

There are many different approaches, but there are too many variables in
actual recording situations for a "way of recording" to be either right or
wrong, which I think Steve might be implying with his question. If the
recording comes out well, it is absurd to consider the recording technique
wrong. All the most well established recording techniques have been
criticized. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be studied and understood
as well as possible.

[aracu]

Even if a recording comes out badly, it's not a mistake, it's experimental data.
Although if I got operated upon I wouldn't want my surgeon to to think like
that. But a recording is a harmless, it can't hurt anyone. Just try it again.

[glissando]

Originally Posted by aracu

Even if a recording comes out badly, it's not a mistake, it's experimental data.
Although if I got operated upon I wouldn't want my surgeon to to think like
that. But a recording is a harmless, it can't hurt anyone. Just try it again.

That's true in the grand scheme of the universe. If you are making a living doing this, then I would say that if it turns out bad, then you did something wrong. Doesn't mean you up and quit, it just means you failed and that is something that needs to be taken seriously in order to improve recording/audio skills.

I think Norse is a perfect (real time) illustration of this. From what he's posting, he's heading towards a failure or two (not being mean, I fail a lot as most of us do) and at that point what seemed to be "right" will become the "wrong" way of doing things.

[big country]

would you want a Doctor practicing on you ?

I wouldn't .

practice ends at med school

or how about a lawyer practicing law

practice is over

[memphisindie]

Here's my recent real world example:

I recorded a band this week, in the real world, and I used all my good gear, I gave them as much space as needed to pull it off as they wished, and they did, the tracks were sounding awesome without any eq, gating, editing, etc., and i just knew that once I got into it (mixing) it would be a breeze.
So, I set it up for mix ITB, and I limited, gated, edited where applicable and drew all the faders as they should have been and got them all well into the ballpark of done, last minute vocal dubs, got all that set, finished up and voila!

I heard a snare drum gate misfire on one hit.

I did it wrong.
It didn't work.

The client loved the mixes.

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

That can work backwards also. Knowledge being the key to experimentation. I believe there are techniques that "Just Work". And that should be the starting point for experimentation. A person should not jump into calculus before learning how to add, and great achievements in any field are usually stemmed from what has already been accomplished.

I can say, however, that my competition will always and have always been doing it the wrong way. (unless you know better)

I have got to agree with you on this one - Gotta know the rules before you break them...

Warm Regards,
Zenith