one more time - main pair vs individual mics?

[jnorman]

i just read a post in another forum from a guy who is (apparently) a fairly top end pro. he had just recorded a classical trio - piano, cello, violin - and used a pair of C12's inside the piano (in omni), and a U47 on the cello, and a U47 on the violin - no main pair, just the individual mics.

i have recorded this way plenty of times, and i know that it produces a contemporary, studio type sound that seems quite favored these days, and certainly offers a far greater degree of control over the balance and sound of each instrument.

i also know that there are many purists on this forum who favor a single stereo pair to capture this type of music, and i hve had some nice results using that method also. others waffle in the middle and advocate setting up both spots and main pair (hey, plenty of tracks available, and everyone should have at least 8 high end pres and mics ready to go...), and then decide during post what to use.

i would appreciate some discussion of this, and hear where you guys are at with this issue these days. thanks.

[John Willett]

Wherever possible I like to use just a single pair.

[Plush]

Super pro piano trio recording depends on 4 microphones and adjustment of where the musicians are sitting.

Sitting:
Vln playa needs to sit wide--to the left of the piano playa's bench. The vln. playa should NOT be in front of the piano. Cello playa sits about 3 feet out from the crook of the piano.

MICS:

Two omni mics are out front--one in front of the vln playa, the other in front of the cello playa. Then two omni mics are facing towards the piano playa from the butt end of the piano. In that way the producer can control the amount of piano in the sound and they can control the amount of string sound separately from the piano.

[jnorman]

excellent - two very different approaches right off the bat from two very experienced guys. thanks.

[boojum]

I have done piano quartets with an MS centered in front of the strings and a pair of omnis behind the strings in the piano's crook aimed back at the piano player. I am interested in Plush's array and will file it away for future reference.

Cheers

[Sonic Lush]

how about augmenting the main pair (if necessary) with individual spots?

is it phase blasphemy, or??

[matthewd]

I am basically with Plush on this one - whilst one would hope a quality ensemble would be self balancing, the trend in recordings for hearing all the detail warrants a pair on the piano and the position Plush mentions works as well as any. If you take the view that musically the trio is a very equal partnership, the piano does tend to suffer from being further away when only a stereo pair is used, even in a good room. Generally I find it sounds fine on a stereo pair in the quiet, slow second movement but as soon as things get busy, you can get problems with lack of clarity in the piano. Of course the player makes a huge difference. I do find if the violinist is prepared to stand and in fact some really like to do so, this can help the balance no end. As far as the cello sound, I find it comes down to the player, the instrument and the position in that order. ie if you can't stop it sounding boomy, it might not be you!!


Matt

[Ozpeter]

Stereo pair out front, mono spot for piano focus (not loudness) close to the tail.

I do find it hard not to start with a pair under any circumstances. I look in the mirror and note the equipment nature has endowed me with (for listening).

[sonare]

The more mics, the more possibility for limitless mixing. Make SURE you are doing it by the hour.

Rich

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Plush

Two omni mics are out front--one in front of the vln playa, the other in front of the cello playa. Then two omni mics are facing towards the piano playa from the butt end of the piano. In that way the producer can control the amount of piano in the sound and they can control the amount of string sound separately from the piano.

Plushy, can you clarify the panning and where the instruments end up in the mix for us. As these are omnis, violin is in left channel of main pr, cello in right channel, piano in middle. Cello in left channel of piano pr, piano in middle. I assume piano pr is panned hard left and right as well, so cello will be in left and right channels in the final mix?

[Plush]

The method I talk about above was taught to me by the great Max Wilcox, engineer and producer extra-ordinaire. He was Artur Rubenstein's producer and also made his reputation recording many famous piano trios. He really knows how to get a sound and he solved a major problem for me with his method.

The major problem is that in piano trio recording the piano is often distant sounding if one only concentrates on getting a good violin and a good cello sound. One has to have separate control of piano and strings.

So micing the vln high and fairly close with the violin sitting to the left of the piano player's bench moves the violin out of the direct sound from the piano. This helps in getting violin focus. If the violin is not heard well enough, then encourage the player to play out more. This is exactly what Max asked the playa we were working with to do.
Cello is miced traditionally with an omni pointing at the center of the cello. Both of these mics are panned hard left and hard right.

Then the piano is handled with two more omnis fairly closely spaced looking at the piano playa from the butt end of the piano approx. two and a half feet out from the back leg of the piano. These mics are also panned hard left and hard right and they ride approx. 6dB below the front instrumental pair.

To complete the Max Wilcox method, an extra long piano stick is made to hold the lid open almost straight up.

The better the room and the better the playas, the better the sound.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Plush

The better the room and the better the playas, the better the sound.