Live Vocal Problem, Advice Needed & Edicate

[brianaustinny]

Ok, we have a constant battle with getting a good vocal sound live. We play small venues that normally have bad PAs and inexperienced engineers. When we can we bring our own engineer, but we can't do that everytime.

Since this is gearslutz, I'm curious if anyone has found any gear that's helped with this problem. For example, is anyone bringing their own mic pres & effects to live shows? Are those vocal pedals ok or are they crap? Also anyone supplimenting stage wedges with in-ears?

I would love to find some solutions that wouldn't offend a good engineer, maybe that we wouldn't even use with a good engineer, but that we could pull out of the bag when we needed to?

[Roland]

There is no easy fix. I get guys who bring up this mic or that mic caliming it is their sound. Sometimes they are right, sometimes it makes no difference, sometimes its a POS that you will struggle to get anything out of. I would say if the FOH engineer or the PA is crap, it doesn't matter what chain you bring it's still going to sound poor. It also has to be born in mind that the voice itself is the biggest determiner of quality!


Regards


Roland

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by Roland

There is no easy fix. I get guys who bring up this mic or that mic caliming it is their sound. Sometimes they are right, sometimes it makes no difference, sometimes its a POS that you will struggle to get anything out of. I would say if the FOH engineer or the PA is crap, it doesn't matter what chain you bring it's still going to sound poor. It also has to be born in mind that the voice itself is the biggest determiner of quality!


Regards


Roland

Yes, and mic technique.

What exactly is the vocal problem??

[brianaustinny]

I think I probably framed the question wrong. I'm not really talking about vocal tone; I'm talking about monitoring.

We'll do a sound check and I'll ask 3 or 4 times for more vocals. Then the sound man will turn it up a little bit, but it's never loud enough to hear once the band starts playing. We have this problem almost always with an inexperienced sound person. On the other hand when we play with our sound man, he gets it right and I can hear vocals. But we can't bring our guy all the time.

I'm not an live engineer myself, but I'd guess that the inexperienced guys don't understand gain staging or eq or something else. So the question was, is there a type of gear that we could bring that would help? Like, would a mic pre help get the level louder? Or would a compressor help? Or would in-ears be the way to go?

Also, most of these places have an sm58s, a mackie board, and peavey/yamaha wedge monitors. And I swallow the mic if necessary.

[mixedupsteve]

It sounds like you need to do your own monitors onstage in cases like that. I love inears for many reasons. Here's a simple little mixer for ears.
I splitter and rack with mixer and eq etc. would be the best way if you can afford it.

[Roland]

Unless you really know what you are doing, I respectfully suggest that ears are not the way too go. They require a lot of extra gear and an eapert of the monitors to make them work well, otherwise they are going to be much worse than monitors.

To the original poster, it could be that your onstage sound is too out of whack and that your onw engineer is overcomming this enough to make it sound reasonable. Whlist I would be the first to say that most on stage monitors mixes are often poor, many times bands do not help themselves by a) playing too loud, b) playing out of balance. If you are not doing either of these things (and before you jump to this conclusion ask your sound guy's independant advice), then you need to decide what you need to hear in the monitors. If you are playing Clubs, bars and small venue's often all you will need are the vocals and any keys/di's etc. You don't say what type of band you are, but if you are a full on rock outfit, that doesn't mean you have to be the loudest thing your side of the Atlantic.

I'm sorry the above is a generalisation, but you do need to get someone to come along and advise you, I personally do not think it is a gear issue.

Regards


Roland

[wordstew]

In my gig bag I always have #1 good mics, in my case it's the Shure KSM 9 and the Sennheiser E965 you will be amazed how much more clarity a quality mic will give you even with sub-par PA system.

#2 Small Power conditioner because you never know in a small venue who set the system up so it's always good to have one just in Case they don't.

#3 TC Helicon Voice Correct. It's no bigger than a paperback book but has compression, voice shaping, Phantom power, mic warmth, it's nice to have all those options available if if the house has got crap equipment. (I never use the pitch correction on the TC unit it's considered cheating for a vocalist.)

This in no way is a substitute for a good sound guy and top of the line in-house set up. This is what might help get you through gig when you are in a desperate spot.

[bishopthomas]

Being an owner of both the KSM9 and 965 how do they compare? Feel free to answer here, but a new thread might be a good place if you don't mind terribly. Thanks!

[ergower]

I would say that often the #1 issue w/ not getting enough vox in the wedges is that the band's stage volume is to loud...I think this is often what separates good bands from average bands....I tend to approach it as projecting the "whole" to the house, so, w/ this in mind, getting the stage volume correct is critical to sounding as cohesive as possible to the audience..i.e., you shouldn't be singing over the volume, you should be singing w/ it IMHO...
in addition, I will absolutely agree w/ the earlier post that said bring your own mic and be aware of your technique....you shouldn't have to swallow the thing to hear yourself..I think when you start doing that you are leaning more towards yelling in key than actually singing, I think vox come across best when they have a bit of room to breathe before hitting the mic....I always, always bring my own mic (beta 58) that I have used for years and know quite well, it benefits performance wise as well as being clean (not shoving the germs from whoever sang on that house 58 the night before right into your face)....
most FOH guys won't give you a hard time about wanting to use your own mics & DI's...they might roll their eyes, but just be overly nice, compliment their work, and tell them you really appreciate all they are doing for you....they generally come around after a bit of ass kissing

[fallforward]

Make nice with the guy before hand. Have a beer before the show starts, help him move a mic stand or two, talk gear, find out what music he likes, let him talk more than you do, ya know like as if you were trying to befriend him.

The reason your sound guy is better than the house guy (IMO)

10% Skill
30% He knows your music, and possibly likes it!
60% He knows you guys and is friends with you, therefore he wants to do a better job.


By making friends with the guy before the show, when you ask for more vocals he'll be more apt to perform his duties better because he will want to -because he likes you.

As far as gear goes, I have particular 57 that I like on my voice, I use it at shows regardless of what they have. But this is not what gets the job done, it's the networking/friendliness before hand that makes the show successful.

In my opinion, a lot of problems that we try and fix with gear (Vocal performance, bad notes, etc.) Can usually be prevented with better communication.

Good Luck Man!
Robby

[GZsound]

The on stage monitoring problem should have nothing whatsoever to do with what microphone you are using, what mic preamp, what effects unit, etc.

It most likely has everything to do with communication with the sound guy. If your engineer can get the monitors correct and another sound guy can't..and I am going to presume the equipment is the same for each, then it's a communication problem with the sound guy.

First off, make sure you have plenty of time to do a sound check. Try and get the monitors where you need them before you actually start the gig. Communicate with the sound guy what you need.

Again, it obviously isn't the microphone or the mic pre, etc. because you already said YOUR sound guy can get adequate monitor levels.

The only variable I see is the change of sound guys.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by ergower

I would say that often the #1 issue w/ not getting enough vox in the wedges is that the band's stage volume is to loud

My money is on this.

[wordstew]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Being an owner of both the KSM9 and 965 how do they compare? Feel free to answer here, but a new thread might be a good place if you don't mind terribly. Thanks!

Having used them both extensively with flat EQ no compression and no effects here is my 2cents on these mics.

965 more sensitive than the KSM, for me uses about 1/3rd less gain.
965 seriously cuts through the muddiness very crisp high end.
Big venue or loud stage this mic will definitely cut through the mix.


KSM has a warmer more robust sound.
KSM really accentuates your mid-tones
Looking for soulful/emotional sound especially in a smaller venue then the KSM is the way to go.

If I had to choose one of the two I would personally go with the KSM. I feel at least for my voice it's a better balanced mic.

PS: I agree 100% with the previous posts Turn down the volume, an extremely loud stage is the kiss of death to most vocalists.

[bishopthomas]

Thank you, Mr. Stew, for your comparison. It sounds like for rock the 965 is probably the way to go. For blues or jazz the KSM9 would fit the bill. It looks like I'm adding the Senny to my list. Thanks again!