The digital vs analog desk challenge - 2009

[studjo]

Please note: Studjo did not title or start this thread.

These posts were moved (split) from the FOH engineers, whats on your tech rider? thread. It made a lot of sense to separate these two subjects.

Thanks!

Remoteness

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if I can avoid a dgital desk - especially those Yammi things they have nowadays - I do that. I prefer a nice analog desk over the menu jumping in the digital desks. Since I'm mostly freenlance I take what's there ...

Jo

[Jim vanBergen]

Digital requires a LOT less at FOH. If I spec a Midas H3000 (my analog desk of choice for most things) I require 4-6 16sp racks of analog support gear. Drawmer gates & comps, Yamaha, Lexicon & Eventide EFX, TC Tap Delay.

If I go digital, I prefer the DiGiCo but I end up mixing ALL the time on Yamaha PM5Ds and digidesign Profiles because they are available from local vendors. If we are carrying a FOH desk, I often bring my analog insert rack for my personal stuff- like my SSL buss com, Purple MC76 and valve compressors, Summit EQs and some neve-esque & tube preamps for key sources.

Unless you carry your consoles, you have to be flexible to what's available. That means I need to carry a stick for each of several consoles: PM1D, PM5D, M7CL, Digico, Profile....and be damn fast in setting up mixes on something I don't carry (like the rare Studer or Soundcraft VI4) and I will not be asking for specific key channels.

If I'm doing monitors, I still prefer the old analog 1/3 octave EQs, but I can certainly work with the onboard EQs- I prefer using the onboard parametrics, which surprises some- but many 1/3 octave "emulation" software display significant phase shift.

Flexibility is key- when I mixed a TV broadcast for Cyndi Lauper, her FOH guy brought me a Daking channel strip with her preamp and EQ settings and said "please run this as her vox channel with no additional EQ; it's 'her sound'." I thought it was a great was to make sure he got her vocal sound to sound like it does in the studio, with minimal hassle & gear.

JvB

[George Necola]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Flexibility is key- when I mixed a TV broadcast for Cyndi Lauper, her FOH guy brought me a Daking channel strip with her preamp and EQ settings and said "please run this as her vox channel with no additional EQ; it's 'her sound'." I thought it was a great was to make sure he got her vocal sound to sound like it does in the studio, with minimal hassle & gear.

JvB

hm.. I think I am mixing the wrong music. here it's only "loud louder the loudest.. can't hear myself.. "-guys If I am doing monitors from FOH, I usually use an Y-cable for split, so I can eq the FOH mix differnt then the signal for the stage (talking about vocals). usually helps.

sorry, what was the question again..

[fifthcircle]

I mix with all digital consoles these days. I actually find analog to be limiting in many respects. Between the scene memories, a completely adjustable EQ, comps on every channel....

I run all Yamaha- the PM5D most often and more recently the smaller venues I work have either M7CL or DM2000. Going to be running a Venue at a big festival in a couple weeks and one of my bigger rental suppliers just got a DigiCo SD8 so I suspect that I'll be using that one a bit more.

Early on, I didn't want to go digital, but now I can't go back.

--Ben

[Samc]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Digital requires a LOT less at FOH. If I spec a Midas H3000 (my analog desk of choice for most things) I require 4-6 16sp racks of analog support gear.

4-6 16 space racks of outboard with a H3000! Which band do you need all this gear for or do you nedd this much gear for every band you mix?

many stadium and arena gigs internationally I've never needed that much gear, and last I checked not even the Stones use that much gear and they use a lot.

[Samc]

Originally Posted by jasonraboin

-High quality PA that delivers clear sound to EVERY sold seat.
-Acceptable systems include: D&B Q1, Meyer M’elodie, DV-DOSC.
-Other systems, including non-line array systems MAY be acceptable.

A lot of engineers are demanding line-arrays without any consideration to the suitability of said system to the room they are playing. Guys, line-array systems are not perfect for every situation, a lot of times point source loudspeakers are the better choice!

-All systems must include a low profile front fill on a separate send.

And what if such a system is not necessary?

-Larger line arrays, like V-DOSC and Milo will not require subs.

Even if you're playing outdoors to 20,000 people...or Bercy in Paris?

-The PA must be downstage of the artist position on stage. The artist prefers to stand 1m upstage of the downstage edge.
-Nothing may be hung in front of the PA. This includes “acoustically transparent” fabric.

I'm sure you can't enforce/dictate the former in most venues since hang points and stage are usually fixed, has something to do with structural engineering. You will not be able to enforce the latter in any festival situation, sponsorship helps to pay your band (and you).

-All crossover settings must be set to the most recent manufacturer settings.

-All system processing must be unlocked and accessible at mix position.

Apart from system EQ and compression, who is going to allow you to mess with their system? Why would you want to be messing around with system
settings anyway, if the system was not setup correctly in the first place, get the system tech. to remedy the situation.

-Signal flow must be simple, and can never include running through another console.

What do you mean by simple, and how will you manage or dictate how it's run, especially in a festival or multi band situationwhere more than one console is in use? Another thing to consider also; Unless your band is the headliner, a lot of festivals will not allow you to use your own console.

-Mix position must be in the center third of the venue, between the left and right PA hangs. Mix position can never be in the balcony, a booth, or a control room. I would prefer not to be under the balcony.
-Mix position must provide a clear unobstructed view of the entire performance area.

All of these things will depend on the venue and the band you're touring with. many world famous venues have their mix position in less than ideal locations and there is nothing that you can do about it.

[jude]

Originally Posted by Samc

Apart from system EQ and compression, who is going to allow you to mess with their system? Why would you want to be messing around with system
settings anyway, if the system was not setup correctly in the first place, get the system tech. to remedy the situation.

exactly!

never did i allow a "guest" engineer, no matter who they were to play with the system crossovers, limiters and parametrics built into our DN8000's.

they were there to mix the band, thats it.

on some jobs i did i had 2 DN3600's in line. i had my room tune on one, if they didnt like it they could play with the other. as for foh compression they were fine to play with it, because hey, thats what i had input limiters on the remote controlled dn8000's for

[jasonraboin]

Originally Posted by jude

exactly!

never did i allow a "guest" engineer, no matter who they were to play with the system crossovers, limiters and parametrics built into our DN8000's.

they were there to mix the band, thats it.

on some jobs i did i had 2 DN3600's in line. i had my room tune on one, if they didnt like it they could play with the other. as for foh compression they were fine to play with it, because hey, thats what i had input limiters on the remote controlled dn8000's for

Then you don't get the show. It's as simple as that. There are plenty of great sound companies that comply with my requests. I consider these needs the same as bi-amp'd wedges, or a particular console.

I generally want the output parametrics set to the most recent manufacturer settings and the input parametrics flat and available to me. If I am told by the system tech that the inputs were used to tune this pa to this room, then I listen and check it out before flattening. I never touch output parametrics / speaker crossover settings, but do often look and check that they are the same and on presets for the actual boxes we are using.

[glissando]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

For the most part, I'm with you George!

I truly prefer the sound of an analog desk over a digital desk, but I had to conform to digital just like so many other live (and studio) engineers.

Hey, check this link out if you haven't already...
Midas Consoles | "Big" Mick Hughes talks digital consoles

"conform or be cast out"

[glissando]

Originally Posted by jude

exactly!

never did i allow a "guest" engineer, no matter who they were to play with the system crossovers, limiters and parametrics built into our DN8000's.

they were there to mix the band, thats it.

Have you had a lot of requests to "play" with the crossovers? If so, you may want to think about that for a minute.

[glissando]

Originally Posted by jasonraboin

Then you don't get the show. It's as simple as that. There are plenty of great sound companies that comply with my requests. I consider these needs the same as bi-amp'd wedges, or a particular console.

I generally want the output parametrics set to the most recent manufacturer settings and the input parametrics flat and available to me. If I am told by the system tech that the inputs were used to tune this pa to this room, then I listen and check it out before flattening. I never touch output parametrics / speaker crossover settings, but do often look and check that they are the same and on presets for the actual boxes we are using.

I've changed crossover settings many times...stock settings can always be reset...and It's always done with the system techs encouragement. If they're not into it, then you probably shouldn't go there, unless it is a disaster.

[Samc]

Originally Posted by glissando

I've changed crossover settings many times...stock settings can always be reset...and It's always done with the system techs encouragement. If they're not into it, then you probably shouldn't go there, unless it is a disaster.

A system tech allowed you to change the crossover settings of the system!!! You do realize that the system's designers didn't arrive at these settings by accident?

I9t is no wonder that most modern systems have put all critical settings out of the reach of prying hands. John Meyer (of Meyer sound) once said it was rather stupid to put all the studies, tests and very hard work into setting these parameters by qualified engineers under optimum conditions, using the best equipment money can buy only to have some dude muck around with it in a venue with bad acoustics and other variables that make the conditions less than ideal.

EQ and compression going in is one thing, but to change crossover points!!! That tech should have been fired!

[Samc]

Originally Posted by jasonraboin

I generally want the output parametrics set to the most recent manufacturer settings and the input parametrics flat and available to me.

Most modern systems (d&b, Turbosound, JBL, Nexo etc) does not allow the user to get this deep into the processor, so you shouldn't find too many home brew EQ, comp or limiter settings this deep.

[Samc]

[QUOTE=jasonraboin;4210757]

This artist won't play if the sponsorship banners are not in an approved location. She does not endorse products, and will not lead an audience to believe she endorses products because banners are hung on the stage.

I agree that the stage belongs to the band/artist, but in front of the hang/stack is another matter.

I understand that I cannot change fly points, but we can fly some of the PA for the balcony and stack some for the orchestra level, if that helps my gain issues. This is really about including me in the discussions about possible array configurations.

This depends on what the venue can legally do and what liabilities they (the venue) and the PA company are willing to accept.

There are a lot of situations where I come in and there is a Lake or XTA processor with tons and tons of eq on the system. I want the right to listen to a baseline system with only the manufacturers settings and appropriate delays. I have posted many times before about finding filters still in left over from a previous pa, or left and right on different presets, and all sorts of mistakes. The processing power we have now gives us the ability to screw it up more than ever before. I want to be able to make sure I am starting from a level playing field. I always involve the system tech in this process.

We are in agreement here. I thought you wanted to change factory settings like crossover points etc.

We rarely play festivals, and if we do we are the headliner, like Newport Folk this summer. We rarely have support acts. I have never had anyone tell me I can't use my own console.

Obviously if this is the case you will always use your console. Your artist obviously only play select gigs conform to her politics, and this explains a lot.

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by Samc

4-6 16 space racks of outboard with a H3000! Which band do you need all this gear for or do you nedd this much gear for every band you mix?

many stadium and arena gigs internationally I've never needed that much gear, and last I checked not even the Stones use that much gear and they use a lot.

Aw come on, Sam. I don't agree with you at all. Have a quick look at my rack layout for a 48-ch input list with 8 ch of FX returns +playbacks:

Rack 1: Playback & record units- CD player, Ipod interface, 2xCD-R, 1x DVD-R

Rack 2: House EQs & delays, (Graphic or Parametric EQs) or a rack of digital drive, etc

Rack 3: Vox channel, tube compressor, 1176 for bass, SSL mix buss compressor, BSS 901 v II dynamic equalizer - ie MONEY channel stuff. I also keep an extra Meyer CP-10 Parametric EQ here-

Rack 4: all FX: - Lexicon 480, TC 6000, Lex PCM70, Yamaha SPX 900 & 990, TC Tap Delay, Eventide Harmonizer

Rack 5: 16-24 channels of Drawmer compression, & 8-12 channels of gates. Big bands, horn sections, etc.

Not every band needs it. But shows that are fully loaded might. Digital desks allow you all this sh*t and you need maybe two racks of record/playback and some key FX gear. But even the people I know touring with DiGiCos and Studers, what I consider the best sounding digital desks out there, are using plenty of expensive outboard.

If you see a big old analog desk and don't see a chunk of outboard, you're not looking in the right places! They may not be using it, but they'd better be carrying it!

JvB

[Remoteness]

Sammy,

Remember one thing...

This is Gearslutz for goodness sake.

If JvB wants to use even 12 racks of gear at FOH and the promoter doesn't have a fit what's the real harm?

Pink Floyd back in the day has 2" multi-tracks for playback at FOH.

Everyone has their own way of doing the job; who cares as long as it sounds good in the end. Right?

[glissando]

Originally Posted by Samc

A system tech allowed you to change the crossover settings of the system!!! You do realize that the system's designers didn't arrive at these settings by accident?

I9t is no wonder that most modern systems have put all critical settings out of the reach of prying hands. John Meyer (of Meyer sound) once said it was rather stupid to put all the studies, tests and very hard work into setting these parameters by qualified engineers under optimum conditions, using the best equipment money can buy only to have some dude muck around with it in a venue with bad acoustics and other variables that make the conditions less than ideal.

EQ and compression going in is one thing, but to change crossover points!!! That tech should have been fired!

That tech is fantastic and most definitely should not be fired...it's also no accident that most of the time FOH engineers are notching out frequencies in and around crossover points. I wouldn't discount this so easily. Yes your average DUDE should not be mucking about. We're not your average dudes, and it worked out nicely. Like I said you can reset factory settings anytime. Making a system work for you is a FOH engineers job.

And of course every Venue is less than ideal.

[Remoteness]

Word up!

Originally Posted by glissando

That tech is fantastic and most definitely should not be fired...it's also no accident that most of the time FOH engineers are notching out frequencies in and around crossover points. I wouldn't discount this so easily. Yes your average DUDE should not be mucking about. We're not your average dudes, and it worked out nicely. Like I said you can reset factory settings anytime. Making a system work for you is a FOH engineers job.

And of course every Venue is less than ideal.

[Samc]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Remember one thing...

This is Gearslutz for goodness sake.

Thanks for reminding me, but what does that mean?

Thing is though I do this enough, and at a high enough level to know what's normal, and when something doesn't look normal....I might ask a question or two.

That's a very impressive list man 16-24 comps...wow!

A Lex 480, and TC 6000 in the same rack with a bunch of other FX units for one band gets my attention. Especially when you consider that the 6000 has 8 inputs and 8 outputs, and depending on the Eventide you can have as many ins and outs. More than $20,000 in fx processors alone!

Anyway, the questions that come to mind immediately are:

Do you really need all of this to make it happen?
Who pays for all this gear, and the cartage?

I'd love to see the patch on a gig like this.

[Samc]

Originally Posted by glissando

That tech is fantastic and most definitely should not be fired...it's also no accident that most of the time FOH engineers are notching out frequencies in and around crossover points. I wouldn't discount this so easily. Yes your average DUDE should not be mucking about. We're not your average dudes, and it worked out nicely. Like I said you can reset factory settings anytime. Making a system work for you is a FOH engineers job.

And of course every Venue is less than ideal.

The fact that you don't understand what's wrong with doing this means I can stop now.

[jasonraboin]

Originally Posted by Samc

The fact that you don't understand what's wrong with doing this means I can stop now.

Part of the issue is the sweeping generalizations about what an engineer should and shouldn't do. The average system tech or mix engineer should not be playing around with crossover settings, especially in a line array or modern digitally processed system. I do not do this.

The above average engineer may have great success tweaking or even creating their own presets for line arrays. Doesn't Firehouse make their own Vertec presets?

People can't believe that I or other engineers would need to look at settings and presets to make sure they are right. I wish this were so. I have found presets for the wrong boxes, different on left than right, and any other anomaly you can imagine when digging around. I generally get a half-assed apology from an apathetic system tech, and then put everything back to normal. These things happening over and over is what led to the current state of the rider. None of the tenets are preemptive. They are all a reaction to experiences.

[Samc]

Originally Posted by jasonraboin

Part of the issue is the sweeping generalizations about what an engineer should and shouldn't do. The average system tech or mix engineer should not be playing around with crossover settings, especially in a line array or modern digitally processed system. I do not do this.

Reading through this post I guess that you and I agree more that we disagree. My contention however is that NO system tech or band engineer should be playing around with crossover settings, these settings are based on very specific scientific study under optimum conditions. Changing the Crossover points of a loudspeaker can affect group delay, phase alignment, power handling capability, frequency response and any number of other parameters. This can be especially bad for loudspeakers that are designed to operate as part of a system, like line-array systems for example, the entire system can be thrown out of whack, no system tech or engineer has all the necessary info to make these changes (I don't care who they are and how good they claim to be), That is why more and more system manufacturers are making sure these parameters can't be touched. Plus this is always a good way to blowup expensive loudspeaker components and kill the show. Changing crossover settings would also probably kill the warranty on the system, and I don't know anyone who has laid out the huge sum of money it would cost to buy a system who would allow that to happen.

The above average engineer may have great success tweaking or even creating their own presets for line arrays. Doesn't Firehouse make their own Vertec presets?

Firehouse are loudspeaker system designers and manufacturers, that already puts them way ahead of system techs and mix engineers. Nothing against you 'above average engineers' but this shit is science. With the kind of knowledge the Firehouse guys have, if you have a system, the correct tools (including a chamber), and the pertinent info about the components and the box etc, you can create your own settings, what we don't know however is if this is just a modification of the original settings or if these are all totally different settings, I would doubt the latter unless they are also changing out components.

On the other hand, I'll bet that those "above average" mix engineers are probably just messing around with EQ settings, delay and different system placement/arrangement.

People can't believe that I or other engineers would need to look at settings and presets to make sure they are right.

On most modern systems (especially powered boxes) this is not really necessary anymore because no one can go that deep into the system, Meyer immediately comes to mind. With other systems like Nexo, Turbosound, JBL Vertec and L'acoustics systems if they are using the processor that was designed specifically for the system, they can't go deep, if however they're using some generic processor.....

None of the tenets are preemptive. They are all a reaction to experiences.

Checking to ensure that things are the way they should be is prudent and shows dedication, when a system tech turns over a system to me, I 'walk' the system with him getting a full explanation of what was done.....

I have no problem with what you do.

[glissando]

Originally Posted by Samc

The fact that you don't understand what's wrong with doing this means I can stop now.

Perhaps you shouldn't make assumptions like that. As you were.

[glissando]

Originally Posted by Samc

Reading through this post I guess that you and I agree more that we disagree. My contention however is that NO system tech or band engineer should be playing around with crossover settings, these settings are based on very specific scientific study under optimum conditions. Changing the Crossover points of a loudspeaker can affect group delay, phase alignment, power handling capability, frequency response and any number of other parameters. This can be especially bad for loudspeakers that are designed to operate as part of a system, like line-array systems for example, the entire system can be thrown out of whack, no system tech or engineer has all the necessary info to make these changes (I don't care who they are and how good they claim to be), That is why more and more system manufacturers are making sure these parameters can't be touched. Plus this is always a good way to blowup expensive loudspeaker components and kill the show. Changing crossover settings would also probably kill the warranty on the system, and I don't know anyone who has laid out the huge sum of money it would cost to buy a system who would allow that to happen.



Firehouse are loudspeaker system designers and manufacturers, that already puts them way ahead of system techs and mix engineers. Nothing against you 'above average engineers' but this shit is science. With the kind of knowledge the Firehouse guys have, if you have a system, the correct tools (including a chamber), and the pertinent info about the components and the box etc, you can create your own settings, what we don't know however is if this is just a modification of the original settings or if these are all totally different settings, I would doubt the latter unless they are also changing out components.

On the other hand, I'll bet that those "above average" mix engineers are probably just messing around with EQ settings, delay and different system placement/arrangement.



On most modern systems (especially powered boxes) this is not really necessary anymore because no one can go that deep into the system, Meyer immediately comes to mind. With other systems like Nexo, Turbosound, JBL Vertec and L'acoustics systems if they are using the processor that was designed specifically for the system, they can't go deep, if however they're using some generic processor.....



Checking to ensure that things are the way they should be is prudent and shows dedication, when a system tech turns over a system to me, I 'walk' the system with him getting a full explanation of what was done.....

I have no problem with what you do.

Sam. You're misinterpreting moving a crossover point. Try thinking creating a hole at the crossover point...not allowing more info in but less. Please open your mind a bit.

[jude]

Originally Posted by glissando

Have you had a lot of requests to "play" with the crossovers? If so, you may want to think about that for a minute.

yeah, usually from kids outa SAE or fullsail etc. hence my stance.

i'll bend my own rules for engineers i know know what there doing. but for some of the "engineers" kids saying "well i graduated from SAE, so i'll do what i want"

wrong, unless you own the PA you wont.

our system srossovers/time delays were pretty damn good and had been worked out over thousands of shows over many years. so it was very rare for engineers who knew what they were doing to want to play with them

[glissando]

Originally Posted by jude

yeah, usually from kids outa SAE or fullsail etc. hence my stance.

i'll bend my own rules for engineers i know know what there doing. but for some of the "engineers" kids saying "well i graduated from SAE, so i'll do what i want"

wrong, unless you own the PA you wont.

our system srossovers/time delays were pretty damn good and had been worked out over thousands of shows over many years. so it was very rare for engineers who knew what they were doing to want to play with them

of course you shouldn't let kids fresh outta school play with your crossovers. I'm confused though. On the one hand, you are correct if a rig is set up really good. On the other hand if it was set up really good, you wouldn't be getting requests to get into the processing.

[Samc]

Originally Posted by glissando

Sam. You're misinterpreting moving a crossover point. Try thinking creating a hole at the crossover point...not allowing more info in but less. Please open your mind a bit.

I really don't understand what any of this means, 'moving a crossover point' seems rather self explanatory and straight forward to me. Please explain, my mind is very open.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by studjo

if I can avoid a dgital desk - especially those Yammi things they have nowadays - I do that. I prefer a nice analog desk over the menu jumping in the digital desks. Since I'm mostly freenlance I take what's there ...

Jo

Please share with the group what you don't like about those "Yammi things". By the way, which Yammi digitals are you talking about?

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I mix with all digital consoles these days. I actually find analog to be limiting in many respects. Between the scene memories, a completely adjustable EQ, comps on every channel....

I run all Yamaha- the PM5D most often and more recently the smaller venues I work have either M7CL or DM2000. Going to be running a Venue at a big festival in a couple weeks and one of my bigger rental suppliers just got a DigiCo SD8 so I suspect that I'll be using that one a bit more.

Early on, I didn't want to go digital, but now I can't go back.

--Ben

+1!!!! Thank you Ben, for being a realist! Very nice post. I worked with a Lighting Designer that refused for many years to learn how to program moving lights on a Hog, Artisan, MA, etc. He is now forcibly retired, because the clients/artists/houses pretty much have no use for him. Now apply that concept to audio consoles.........................

[Remoteness]

Times are a changing...