Recording a large choir to an existing track - advice needed!

[pianokeys]

Hi everyone.

Next week I'm recording a 150 piece choir in a church to an existing gospal track - full band - big sound.

The choir will be set up on two sets of risers - facing eachother. This as I'm told is unavoidable.

My plan is to play the track over powered monitors - 2 facing each direction from the centre aisle while recording from the centre using two stereo pairs - and perhaps a third pair from above or way back for room.
I'll place the monitors out extra wide to keep some distance between them and the mics and of course keep each set of monitors closer to the choir than the mics - so that the mics won't pick up direct monitor sound. For this reason I'm also expecting to use cardiod or perhaps wide cardiod patterns.

I'm hoping that after everyone leaves - if I then record the track through the exact same mics, in exact same positions, exact settings etc - then flip the phase - that most or all of the amplified track that bleeds into the choir sound will be gone.

I know that 150 bodies affect the acoustics of the room but it is unrealistic to expect them to be silent while I record the track for phase flipping I believe.

**Please note that I have never tried this and I am apprehensive to say the least. Does this phase trick really work? Are there things I need to know that I'm not mentioning? Other ideas to consider?

Thanks ever so much!!

[jpupo74]

Hi pianokeys,

I think you'll be safe using a good pair of speakers behind the chorus feeding a very well balance mix of what you have already tracked so that they fill comfortable. I will do that instead of the phase trick.

Cheers,
Pupo

[pianokeys]

As in a pair behind each set of risers? No worry about feedback with the mics facing the speakers? What about time delay of the mix bleed from the monitors 75 feet or so away from the mics in front of the choir vs the recorded mix?

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

As in a pair behind each set of risers? No worry about feedback with the mics facing the speakers? What about time delay of the mix bleed from the monitors 75 feet or so away from the mics in front of the choir vs the recorded mix?

I don't see any feedback happening here...u r just going to feed speakers with the previously recorded 2 track. You don't have to feed the speakers with what u r recording. Position of speakers shouldn't be very very far away. You should try to get the right width and good stereo image of everything u r tracking roght of the bat.

I mean, this is complex and tricky, I'm trying to give you ideas. I have done it but with one singer, and it wokred. To choirs facing each other, and as big as that is something else, but the procedure should work for both escenarios.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Pupo

[pianokeys]

Thanks - true of course no feedback as the choir wouldn't be fed through the monitors - still I'm not clear why it would be ok to have so much of the mix bleeding through the choir tracks - and then fighting with the recorded instruments.

There'd be recorded tracks - then the sound of the mix say .05s later behind the choir no?

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

Thanks - true of course no feedback as the choir wouldn't be fed through the monitors - still I'm not clear why it would be ok to have so much of the mix bleeding through the choir tracks - and then fighting with the recorded instruments.

There'd be recorded tracks - then the sound of the mix say .05s later behind the choir no?

Hi pianokeys,

Well, 0.5 seconds will be A LOT, it will be WAY less than that. I'm not saying it would be OK to have "so much bleed". Put it this way. It will not be bad to have "a bit" of bleed. It will help you blend the mix with the choir, since you'll capture some of the ambience. I'm also thinking that the mix is already there or at least at a 90%?

On the other hand you can always send your 2 track thoruhg a pair of speakers, after the choir finishes, and this "could" also help you in the mix. Got it? Lots of people do this type of things. It works.

Very important thing for you. You HAVE to explain them what you are going through and they HAVE to know it is NOT a normal situation in ANY SENSE. Facing two choirs together because "it has to be this way" or etc etc etc.
I am just telling you because it can get a bit complicated. If this is very important for them and they want the thing to be brilliant etc etc etc...hmmm...make them rent 150 headphones.

I wonder why other people are not chimimng in.
I will add the word Neve and Bricasti so that when they search they find your thread.


Best,
José

[_Morph_]

If the choir is good enough, just feed the recording to the choirmaster and the principal singer in each part, through headphones. Takes a bit of imagination, but the key elements know when to sing.

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by _Morph_

If the choir is good enough, just feed the recording to the choirmaster and the principal singer in each part, through headphones. Takes a bit of imagination, but the key elements know when to sing.

Hi Morph.

I think there's no way the choir will be able to stay in tune this way. They really need to listen to whats going on.

Just my 2 cents,
Pupo

[studjo]

I used the phase flip trick in a situation with less singers but still no headphones possible - it worked pretty ok - you might eq for even more cancelling or cancelling in freqs you need to cancel out

my 0.2 cents

Jo

[Corran]

There has been a couple threads about the phase flip trick before but I can't remember the titles off hand...

I think if they are really pro they could easily stand there for a few minutes to get the phase-reversed take. I've had middle schoolers stand still while I got a couple minutes of silence to use in a noise-removal plug-in.

Tell them the situation and what you need. They will probably be impressed by your knowledge of physics and all that, as long as you don't sound like a crackpot! Use simple language, unless you happen to have a physics buff present!

Let us know how it turns out.

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by Corran

They will probably be impressed by your knowledge of physics and all that, as long as you don't sound like a crackpot!

[Remoteness]

I would mic each section with a cardioid mic and place a speaker behind each cardioid.
While you're playback is running find the perfect speaker placement behind each mic by finding the best null point which should maximize the sound isolation of the playback tracks.

Also, make sure the speakers are as tall as the singers. Speakers on sticks seem to be a good approach -- don't use wedges or side fills for this task...

And last, but not least, keep the volume as low as possible and you should be set to go.

[Remoteness]

I just reread the OP and realized that the choir will be set up facing each other, so my idea will not work properly...

Back to the drawing board.

How about figure eights in between the risers and some speakers suspended above the mics at the right null point?

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I just reread the OP and realized that the choir will be set up facing each other, so my idea will not work properly...

Why not?

[mixedupsteve]

One thing I have heard of done in recording studios is to place the monitors exactly the same distance from the mic(s) and reverse the phase on one of the speakers. That way they would mostly null at the mic.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

Why not?

Well, I guess it could work if you double up on the speakers.

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

One thing I have heard of done in recording studios is to place the monitors exactly the same distance from the mic(s) and reverse the phase on one of the speakers. That way they would mostly null at the mic.

Yes, that has been done successfully.

[RichS]

As long as you've got the choir there, you could at least try the "speaker/phase" playback with them standing quiet. If it doesn't work, you'll still have the "no bodies" version to use (or possibly "repair" a noise in the bodies version?).

Another thought...

Play them a sharply EQ'd (or maybe low-pass filter) background track with just base lines and a little kick. Should be enough to keep them in rhythm and on pitch. Then use a high-pass filter on the vocal track.

That's it... I'm out. Good luck!

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

Why not?

Because the speakers will be facing both ways, so the information you are trying to leave off axis on the first pair of mics will finally be on axis with the second pair of speakers. On the other hand, this will be possible considering using a spaced pair I guess, otherwise it'll be even more complicated.

Cheers,
Pupo

[mixedupsteve]

Yeah,
Steve's post said a speaker behind each mic which I think would work even with the OP's choir configuaration. That isn't how the proposed micing was described by the op though.

[Remoteness]

I would not mic this project with a stereo pair.

I feel individual cardioid mics w/ a speaker (at the lowest possible volume) at each mic position tuned to the mics null point is the best option...

But, that's me of course.

[matthewd]

Hi there

I've tried this a few times and never got it to work or at least there is residual boomy backing track which clouds the mix in comparison to what it was like before adding the choir. Solutions? Well, I've done it wild with regular pitch checks via piano or whatever - maybe cans for the director and possibly a few section leaders and then nail each phrase systematically - you'll have much more power afterwards including autotune etc because it is just them - they have to go out of tune on mass rather than in relative terms. The big studio approach is over course headphones but nobody seems to have 150 pairs readily available and the rigging on location for this is quite a task.


Thats the way i've done it but is sounds like some have had success so perhaps I just screwed it up.

Matt

[Remoteness]

Matt, which way didn't work for you - my approach or the other approaches?

I have successfully captured choir the way I described a number of times.

Another way to handle this is as follows:

Have the choir director and a few key singers wear headphones.
Everyone else can follow the director.
Speakers can also supplement the session at very low volume.

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Matt, which way didn't work for you - my approach or the other approaches?

I have successfully captured choir the way I described a number of times.

Another way to handle this is as follows:

Have the choir director and a few key singers wear headphones.
Everyone else can follow the director.
Speakers can also supplement the session at very low volume.

Yup, this should work OK.

[pianokeys]

Thank you everyone for this wonderful advice.

So 4 mics in cariod - 2 facing each set of risers -
and 4 monitors - each set up behind the mic at lowest level possible.

Sounds like a good start.

May I ask, is it critical for the choir to be there for the phase flip attempt or can I just use the empty room?

Also the two monitor trick with one phase reversed seems very interesting. My questions are 1) even if they are equadistance from the mic wouldn't the live church room affect the ability of one speaker to cancel out the other? and 2) how does one easily flip the phase on a monitor being fed by standard 1/4 inch speaker cable from a powered amp?

[pianokeys]

I also just read this idea on another thread:



For band track playback to the choir, try small Fostex 6301B or similar speakers mounted on mic stands. Place the speakers at ear height and imbed them into the choir with a speaker for every 6 - 10 singers. Run the playback level as low as possible. The limited low-end and volume of the speakers helps with the spill into the mics. I've done this successfully with choirs up to 350 voices in overdubs to orchestra tracks. Headphones were provided for the chorus director only. NO CLICK TRACK into the speakers of course! You're asking for trouble with 50 sets of cans and probably more leakage than the little speakers would present.

[Remoteness]

Keep in mind that I'm suggesting to work with the mic null and speaker placement.
Try to get the best possible isolation by playing with the speaker position and monitoring level.

The phase thingy is a different situation, which can work if properly executed.

Also, consider giving the choir director a headphone mix for extra measure.

Originally Posted by pianokeys

Thank you everyone for this wonderful advice.

So 4 mics in cariod - 2 facing each set of risers -
and 4 monitors - each set up behind the mic at lowest level possible.

Sounds like a good start.

May I ask, is it critical for the choir to be there for the phase flip attempt or can I just use the empty room?

Also the two monitor trick with one phase reversed seems very interesting. My questions are 1) even if they are equadistance from the mic wouldn't the live church room affect the ability of one speaker to cancel out the other? and 2) how does one easily flip the phase on a monitor being fed by standard 1/4 inch speaker cable from a powered amp?

[Remoteness]

This works well, but too.
I'm suggesting to place the speakers at the cardioid mic's null point for extra isolation which minimizes the leakage possibility.

Originally Posted by pianokeys

I also just read this idea on another thread:



For band track playback to the choir, try small Fostex 6301B or similar speakers mounted on mic stands. Place the speakers at ear height and imbed them into the choir with a speaker for every 6 - 10 singers. Run the playback level as low as possible. The limited low-end and volume of the speakers helps with the spill into the mics. I've done this successfully with choirs up to 350 voices in overdubs to orchestra tracks. Headphones were provided for the chorus director only. NO CLICK TRACK into the speakers of course! You're asking for trouble with 50 sets of cans and probably more leakage than the little speakers would present.

[pianokeys]

Thanks Steve - so therefore directly behind the cardioid mics at the same height.

I'll try that and record a phase flip for safety as well.

Still wondering if someone could comment on the importance of a silent choir vs an empty room for recording the phase flip track - thanks!

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

Thanks Steve - so therefore directly behind the cardioid mics at the same height.

I'll try that and record a phase flip for safety as well.

Still wondering if someone could comment on the importance of a silent choir vs an empty room for recording the phase flip track - thanks!

Why not just do both and use the one you like best.

[Remoteness]

Keep in mind that you want to be listening to each mic individually when you move the speaker back and forth (while the music is playing of course) to maximize the isolation at the mic's null point.

Do this with each speaker.

Originally Posted by pianokeys

Thanks Steve - so therefore directly behind the cardioid mics at the same height.

I'll try that and record a phase flip for safety as well.

Still wondering if someone could comment on the importance of a silent choir vs an empty room for recording the phase flip track - thanks!