Quiet Classical Guitar Recording

[fufaso]

Hey guys,

I'm hoping that someone can help me out. I looked through similar threads but didn't find what I was looking for.

I play classical guitar really quietly and really like the sound that I am getting. I've spent 4 years trying out strings to match my technique and am happy with my setup. My issue now is that I can't get good levels when recording.

I've got an AKGc1000 that I bought 5 years ago that gives me hardly any level at all. This past weekend I rented a TLM 103 and a c451 and ran it through a $3500 preamp whose name escapes me at the moment. I had the levels on both pretty much pinned and was getting a pretty weak level. The preamp was going into a Presonus Firepod.

Is there a combination of mic and micpre that would pick up my playing with a decent recording level?

[NorseHorse]

At what distance are you placing your microphones?

[fufaso]

Mics were very close, in fact they were as close as I could get them without hitting them with my hands. I played around with placement as well and the the AKG at the neck and the TLM by my right hand.

[didier.brest]

Did you set up the gain on the preamp?

[mixedupsteve]

Somethings wrong here. Do you have the phantom power on? What is the level of the recorded signal your getting?

[fufaso]

Gain was set on the preamp and we went line in into the firepod.

Phantom power was on for both mics.

This is an issue I've had when recording with my c1000 and mbox with no preamp as well.

[NorseHorse]

Are you actually plucking the strings of the guitar at all? Or just touching them?

BUT even with no guitar at all, you should be able to crank the gain on your preamps and hear the ROOM that you are in. I'd worry about making sure your signal chain is working properly because quietly playing guitar shouldn't be a problem.

[mixedupsteve]

I assume the gain is set on the firepod as well. What is the level your getting?

[fufaso]

We were running into Cubase and my level was maybe 1/4 of the way up the VU meter.

Gain was set on the firepod also.

We tried swapping cables and inputs all to no avail, which is why I figured it was just the mic and micpre combination wasn't sensitive enough to pick up my playing.

I pluck the strings, but it is fairly quiet so that there is some noise with the fingers of my right hand just before a pluck the string to have the note resonate. This is done deliberately, and when I play louder, that noise gets lost.

[hughesmr]

Based on the sound I've heard from c1000s in the past, your present result may be preferable! (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

It's curious if you are getting the same result with different mics and pres. Maybe something internal to the Firepod that has hosed the inputs? Or maybe you aren't fully seating your cables into their inputs/outputs...?

[Corran]

I've met some pretty quiet guitar players, and recorded some too. Unless you are the quietest player ever something is definitely wrong here. Perhaps if you can remember the preamp that will help. Those mics should give you plenty of level, and as Norse said, with the gain pegged you should have tons of level just from the room noise.

[mixedupsteve]

When you recorded on the nice pre did the level show as good on the indicator on the pre itself. You weren't using the line in of chan 1 or 2 on the firepod were you? Those are unbalanced instrument level ins.

[fufaso]

Tried different inputs on the firedpod (weren't using 1 and 2). They seem fine as when the guy I play guitar with is recording his levels are fine using an NT1; and for a recording weekend he had his NT1 along with a c414 and had no issues - granted he does play much louder than me which again kind of lead me to believe it was more my than the gear.

There was no level indicator on the mic pre - I'll find out which one it was tomorrow and post that up.

I'm going to do some tests at home tomorrow with my mbox and I've got an older ART pre that I will test with too and see what happens.

[fufaso]

Just tested now.

c1000 through mbox only - level pinned on the mbox to get an ok level - just over 1/2 the way up the vu meter.

c1000 through ART pre (it has a +20db boost) - without the boost, input and output level pinned to get a somewhat ok level - mbox line in at about half.

with the 20db boost on, input and output levels at about half to get a pretty good level (better than I got all weekend with the good stuff) - mbox line in about half.

Also, this is with the mic really close to the guitar.

[gsilbers]

the issue with quiet classical guitar is that if you boost the level you get noise.

and if you get the mic to close you get too much attack and not the "air" of the instrument and the room. as you dont want it to sound like a acustic guitar which is meant to cut through and/or the strings resonate more.

i am getting the peluso 2247 which is a coopy of the old neuman u47 . supopsly it doesnt hype the highs and nice and warmth on the mids and lows.

but the real magic trick is to get a very very quiet wooden room and mic and pre comb that wont add noise.

[didier.brest]

Any preamp adds noise: a fundamental law of the thermodynamics says that the minimum amount of noise is determined by the mic impedance and temperature. Most preamps, even cheap ones, are a few dBs close to this minimum. The ratio of the preamp noise level to this aboslute minimum noise level is named the noise factor. The noise level at the preamp output is the thermodynamic noise level plus the preamp noise factor in dB plus the preamp gain. Hence for a given output signal level, which determines the gain, the output noise level does not vary much between most modern preamps, especially solid-state ones, and should not be a decisive feature for selecting the preamp.

[mathieujm]

C1000 has a 6mv/Pa sensitivity which is not great for quiet sources like your guitar.

Could I suggest you to try some more sensitive mics ? The best for me on this criteria (and others !) is the Beyer MC930 with a 30 mv/Pa sensitivity.

If you compare 30mv/Pa to the 6mv/Pa of the C1000, you get 14 db more from the MC930 for the same sound source !!! This is a great advantage when working with not excellent preamps.

JMM

[didier.brest]

6 mV/Pa cannot be an issue for a normal preamp. Let us assume -120 dB EIN, which is crazy noisy (noise factor > 10 dB). With 6 mV/Pa sensitivity and omnidirectional directivity, the acoustic ambient noise that would generate the same level of electric noise like the preamp noise has a level of -120 - 20*log(0.006) + 94 = 18 dB SPL, which is dead quiet. It means that with such a mic and such a preamp, the noise is caused mostly by the ambient acoustic noise. Then the mic sensitivity is by no way of concern since the signal-to-noise ratio at the preamp output is determined only by the acoustic level of the signal.

[mixedupsteve]

I would also check the channel fader in the DAW. You can make some adjustments there to the recording level. If the pre and the firepod are generating decent levels then it should be fine. I prefer lower rather than higher levels to record myself.

[fufaso]

I think I'm going to do some more testing with the firepod this weekend and see what's happening here. Going to use the c1000, NT1, a 57, 58, and an old Apex 420 and get to the bottom of all this. I know these aren't the ideal, but it's all I've got access to for now.

Also, I've got about $1200 to spend on new mics and am looking at a matched set of SDC's as I want to mic above and below the guitar to split the high's and low's. I'm leaning towards the MC930's or the CEMC6's for this. Should I steer clear of either of these or look at something else?

[didier.brest]

You might wait for the results from Mike Jasper testing about 60 SDCs on guitar, to be published in Tape Op on July.

[fufaso]

Thanks for the heads-up on that didier.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by fufaso

Also, I've got about $1200 to spend on new mics and am looking at a matched set of SDC's as I want to mic above and below the guitar to split the high's and low's. I'm leaning towards the MC930's or the CEMC6's for this. Should I steer clear of either of these or look at something else?

Just an FYI someone has the CEMC6 set in the classifieds for $550 I think. You might also look at a full set of Oktava MK-012s, modded, at OktavaMod - Affordable Boutique Microphones

[desotoslo]

Originally Posted by fufaso

I'm leaning towards the MC930's or the CEMC6's for this. Should I steer clear of either of these or look at something else?

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