C461s, MC930s, AT4051s, or km184s for string quartet?

[jnorman]

gonna pick up another ORTF pair for duos and small chamber work, also for use as spots on occasion, for piano, strings and winds. i have owned dpa 4011s, 4006s, schoeps cmc64s, c481s and 461s, km184s, m300s, etc etc, so i have a fair idea of what i like and dont, but i havent heard the mc930s yet, though have read lots of good opinions.

i am spending about $600/pair. i have used and really like the AT4051s, C481s and 461s. always felt km184s were a tad bright, but many people still like them and use them all the time. i can get new AT4051s for $600 pair right now from MF closeout sale. found a used pair of mc930s for $650. used pair of C461s for $600. km184s, maybe $900 used.

what do you guys think? anything else i should consider in this price range? anybody got a pair of mkh40s they wanna sell for $600/pr? thanks.

[jnorman]

or i could go the cheap route, and just use them as spots - i have had suggestions for the avantone ck1's, the busman bsc-1s, and the new (believe it or not) M-Audio Pulsars (getting lots of good ink over at taperssection.com). all around $300/pair. all comments appreciated. danke.

[jnorman]

ha! everyone is all out of opinions, all of a sudden? i doubt it...
i mean, at least, someone should tell me to save my money and get some "real" mics.

[Corran]

Honestly if I were getting something specifically for string quartet it would be a pair of ribbons.

Here's a recording of a string quartet with a heavily modded B&O BM-5. If you don't like the sound then I guess you can discount my opinion.

[d_fu]

Considering my recent positive experiences with MKH 40s as stereo main mic, these would certainly be a good bet, but they are, umm, likely to be beyond your budget. Then again, I've made a recording of a string quartet with a simple pair of AKG 480 or 460 (don't recall) and CK61 capsules in a very reverberant church. The performers really liked it, having worried it would be too reverberant. Could try to dig that up if you say pleeeeeeeease...

If you can, buy both the Beyer and AKG pairs and try for yourself...

[gehauser]

Have you heard the MC930s vs KM84s here?

Acoustic Guitar Samples KM84 vs MC930

[jnorman]

corran - yes, i like ribbons, and have owned pairs of royer r-121s, coles 4038s, fatheads and shinyboxes, but due to some recent family health issues, had to sell my HV-3 preamp, and no longer have any pres that will drive ribbons well enough.
i posted a recent thread asking whether any of the new inexpensive active ribbons were any good, but didnt get much.

du fu - yes, i have owned pairs of c481s before and really liked them a lot - very flat and open - did some great cello and violin work with them. if i could find a used pair of 481s or 461s for my price i would likely pick them right up.

geha - i dont really find tests of close mics on acoustic guitar very revealing for what mics can do as an ORTF pair for ensemble work. ie, i think the km184 works great as a close mic on guitar, but find them generally thin and brightish as a main pair. i have read lots of good reports on the mc930s though, which is why i am considering them. had a guy offer me a pair for $650, but didnt hear back from him.

thanks for the comments.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by Corran

...a heavily modded B&O BM-5.

Haha. That makes me think of it like a bazuka or something.

Nice sample, by the way. I can dig it.

[Corran]

Yes the preamp can be a problem...but check this out: OktavaMod - Shop

Michael Joly sells these on his site as a alternative to the noisy Rode D-Power one. I have a pair and they are great. My Sytek usually can drive the ribbon but using these the noise is still reduced in comparison to that.

Of course $200 for these lowers what you can spend on the mics but one of those Cascade stereo ribbons (X-15) with this might be just the ticket. I hear those can also be modded to get a better sound as well (there is a thread about that somewhere comparing it to a Royer SF-12).

Edit: Thanks Norse!

[videoteque]

Originally Posted by Corran

Here's a recording of a string quartet with a heavily modded B&O BM-5. If you don't like the sound then I guess you can discount my opinion.

Sounds really great!!!thumbsupthumbsup

[jnorman]

corran - hey turkey, thanks for highjacking my thread with your clip

how about some comments on the mics i mentioned, ? got a line on a pair of km184s now, at4051a's new for $600/pr, akg c460s for $325/pr bodies only (gotta find some ck61 caps), and mc930s for $650/pr. what's my best deal? what would you avoid/select from that group? thanks to all.

[Corran]

Sorry

Honestly from what I've read and heard the 184 and AKG line are going to be bright, which isn't going to work well on strings. That would narrow my choices.

[Don S]

If the MC930 is made by Gefell, then I would go for that one first. I'm not sure you can get them for $600 a pair. Maybe $600 a piece used from ebay. But I suspect that you're not going to be too happy with $600/pair mics after working with a 4006.

[mathieujm]

You certainly have heard all the samples with MC930 in this thread ?

Beyer MC930 for classical distant miking

These are not far from what you want to record. What do you think of them ?

On saturday I will record with the MC930 some chamber music with conservatory students. If it's good enough, I will post some samples.

I never compared the MC930 to C480 or AT4051 but with AT3031, MBHO, KM184, MXL603, SPs and for my use (distant classical concert miking) it's clearly the best.

I just wait for reports about the new omni MC910 to see if it's as good as the 930, but nothing until now.

JMM

[Corran]

Originally Posted by Don S

If the MC930 is made by Gefell, then I would go for that one first. I'm not sure you can get them for $600 a pair. Maybe $600 a piece used from ebay. But I suspect that you're not going to be too happy with $600/pair mics after working with a 4006.

The Gefell 930 is a different mic. And much more expensive!

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Corran

Honestly from what I've read and heard the 184 and AKG line are going to be bright, which isn't going to work well on strings. That would narrow my choices.

At a bit of a distance, the AKG CK61 certainly isn't overbright (like some of the old CK1 capsules used to be). Not sure if I would use it as a violin spot, considering I've got MKHs, but otherwise, nothing fundamentally wrong. Guess I'll have to dig up that recording I mentioned... Might even still be on one of my umpteen hard drives somwhere.

[d_fu]

Found it on one of my PCs...

Haydn, an excerpt from the "Seven last words of Christ" for string quartet. Recorded in 2004 in a large reverberant church, with two AKG CK 61 capsules, attached to either C 460 or 480 bodies (didn't have my Jim-Williams-modded 460s yet at that time), in some kind of NOS or so setup (no pictures). No EQ, straight out of the box.

This may not be the Emerson or ABQ, it's "only" a group of musicians from the local "B" grade orchestra. They were very happy with the sound, wonder what other string players here think.

Daniel

[Plush]

May I suggest you check out the Shure KSM-137 cardioids?

These are fantastic mics and are Shure's copy of a Schoeps CMC64.
Tonal balance is neutral and the microphones have an appealing sound for all sources.
Diaphragm is very thin and responsive.

$ 599/pair

[jnorman]

well, i should have pairs of MC930s, AT4051s, and KM184s here next week to test together. i will put them all up at the same time and do some test recordings, and i will try to post some clips of the three sets of mics for you all to hear. they will all be set up as ORTF pairs, about 8 feet out from a flute/piano duo in the studio.

[Corran]

Ooh, flute and piano - can't wait to hear.

[BrianHanke]

Have you considered Oktavas? I'm demoing a pair of the MK012 cardioids right now and I've been pleasantly surprised with how good they sound, especially given their low price. I've also used Shure's small diaphragm condensers in the past and found them to be an excellent value.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Found it on one of my PCs...

Haydn, an excerpt from the "Seven last words of Christ" for string quartet. Recorded in 2004 in a large reverberant church, with two AKG CK 61 capsules, attached to either C 460 or 480 bodies (didn't have my Jim-Williams-modded 460s yet at that time), in some kind of NOS or so setup (no pictures). No EQ, straight out of the box.

This may not be the Emerson or ABQ, it's "only" a group of musicians from the local "B" grade orchestra. They were very happy with the sound, wonder what other string players here think.

Daniel

Great d_fu,... but I think something is missing for the violins. It seems too polished in the highs. Is it the reverb ?

JMM

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

It seems too polished in the highs.

Considering the reputation of the AKGs, that's not exactly a comment I was expecting...

[Dave C]

I'm partial to AT4051's in ORTF; they usually come out on top when doing multiple pair tests for me and the people that I record. As compared to SM-81's, 460-ck61's, 451's, and some older Sennheiser something or others that have found their way into the mic box, possibly mk-40 or me-40?

Most get tried out, and usually one other pair is left up for safety recordings (completely redundant chain; mics, pre, recorder, monitor).

When doing comparative testing on mic arrays; try to be consistent with splay angles and capsule distance. This can affect the quality of the sound capture, with regard to LR+ centre imaging, ambience, etc. That way you can compare the mics themselves, and not their positions or orientations. Perhaps make a cardboard template with the angle and distance for consistency.

Good Luck,

Dave C.

[Fran Guidry]

It's not clear from the ad, but this guy is selling a pair of Shure KSM141s for either $300 or $600:

Like New Shure KSM141 | Sweetwater Trading Post

Fran

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

On saturday I will record with the MC930 some chamber music with conservatory students. If it's good enough, I will post some samples.

Here is a sample. MC930 in ORTF. Nothing done except normalisation. It was a concert in a little village church. It was not easy to play for the musicians because of the enormous humidity inside. It was great to have no noise with the 930 in this situation.

JMM

[didier.brest]

Are you happy with the lows of the cello at about 40"?

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Are you happy with the lows of the cello at about 40"?

The question is for me Didier ?

JMM

[didier.brest]

Yes. I found them a bit resonant, which might be not because of the mics.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Yes. I found them a bit resonant, which might be not because of the mics.

No it's because of the church which didn't have an ideal acoustic (little church with a huge reverb, and yes it could be a problem with the 930 because they have a lot of low mid and basses. And probably I was too far from the musician, but it was not possible to be closer.

JMM