Forssell SMP-2 and Jim Williams High Speed Microphone Preamp Comparison

[sunflute]

* Disclaimer: This is not a scientific test, just a short comparison of these two wonderful preamps*

With the Help of fellow Gearslutz member Bove we did a short shoot-out of both preamps on flute. It was done at his apartment in NY and even though it was fairly quiet one can still hear a bit of the city hum.

The Chain: 2 Crowley & Tripp Proscenium Ribbon Microphones > 2 Enhanced Audio M600 mounts> Kimber Kable KCAG Silver cable for the mics > SMP-2 & High Speed Pres> Lavry Blue Converters > Sound Devices 744 Recorder.

Recorded mono at 24/96 converted to 44.1 in Samplitude

Because we couldn't put the mics right next to each other, we decided to do 2 takes and then switch the microphones cables into the preamps for the second take, that way one can at least hear what each preamp sounds like from each microphone.

We recorded 2 excerpts from the solo flute literature: CPE Bach Solo Flute Sonata in A minor, the first movement and JS Bach Partita in A minor - the first movement as well.

As usual, we welcome constructive comments

TAKE 1:

CPE BACH - Forssell SMP2 - TAKE 1 Left Mic
CPE BACH - Williams High Speed - TAKE 1 - Right Mic

JS BACH - Forssell SMP2 - TAKE 1 - Left Mic
JS BACH - Williams High Speed - TAKE 1 - Right Mic

TAKE 2:

CPE BACH - Forssell SMP2 - TAKE 2 - Right Mic
CPE BACH - Williams High Speed - TAKE 2 - Left Mic

JS BACH - Forssell SMP2 - TAKE 2 - Right Mic
JS BACH - Williams High Speed - TAKE 2 - Left Mic

Special Thanks to Andrew Bove who provided his SMP2, converters and place for this test.

[tsvisser]

Not sure if this is constructive, but I could not detect any major differences between the preamps. If anything , the Williams had a slightly more laid back presentation, while the Forsell seemed more etched. I don't think I could necessarily attribute a positive or negative commentary on the differences as of now. Obviously they are both of similar class to me.

I do note that you are using an unshielded audiophile cable for the test. I would have hesitated myself to use such a cable, as some noise could be introduced through the use of such an unshielded cable on the highly amplified microphone lead.

[Corran]

Unrelated to the preamps (which sound pretty much the same to me), why did you take the Partita so fast??

[sunflute]

I know, I know...... I've always felt that piece like that....as far as I can remember I've always played it that fast. At music school my teachers would get on me about it but to no avail.....

Anyways, thanks for listening.
Peace
Marco

[jnorman]

hi marco - both sounded perfectly smooth, and seem to drive the ribbons well. i dont think i had a preference for either.

how do you feel about the proscenium ribbons vs the nice condensers you have used in the past, like the mkh40, mkh20, etc?

[snaysup]

of course they sound similiar they are both blue

[sunflute]

Hey James,

I definitely prefer ribbons over condensers for flute and the Proscenium is IMHO the most Balanced of the high end ribbons I have tried (AEA, Royer, Beyer). As you are well aware some ribbons tend to accentuate the low frequencies and tapper the high ones but in the case of the Proscenium the low to high frequency range is very smooth and balanced. It is not a bright mic but since flute is an instrument that deals mainly with the fundamentals of the tone I am not worried about capturing really high harmonics. Plus I find that when I use silver cable I get more than enough high frequency information for my taste.

I think of the Proscenium as I would a Sennheiser MKH series, a DPA, a Schoeps or a modded AKG C460B.

Thanks for listening,
Peace
Marco

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by snaysup

of course they sound similiar they are both blue

thumbsup

[chris319]

the Forsell seemed more etched.

I've never heard an etched-sounding preamp until today.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by sunflute

* Disclaimer: This is not a scientific test, just a short comparison of these two wonderful preamps*

With the Help of fellow Gearslutz member Bove we did a short shoot-out of both preamps on flute. It was done at his apartment in NY and even though it was fairly quiet one can still hear a bit of the city hum.

The Chain: 2 Crowley & Tripp Proscenium Ribbon Microphones > 2 Enhanced Audio M600 mounts> Kimber Kable KCAG Silver cable for the mics > SMP-2 & High Speed Pres> Lavry Blue Converters > Sound Devices 744 Recorder.

Recorded mono at 24/96 converted to 44.1 in Samplitude

Because we couldn't put the mics right next to each other, we decided to do 2 takes and then switch the microphones cables into the preamps for the second take, that way one can at least hear what each preamp sounds like from each microphone.

We recorded 2 excerpts from the solo flute literature: CPE Bach Solo Flute Sonata in A minor, the first movement and JS Bach Partita in A minor - the first movement as well.

As usual, we welcome constructive comments

TAKE 1:

CPE BACH - Forssell SMP2 - TAKE 1 Left Mic
CPE BACH - Williams High Speed - TAKE 1 - Right Mic

JS BACH - Forssell SMP2 - TAKE 1 - Left Mic
JS BACH - Williams High Speed - TAKE 1 - Right Mic

TAKE 2:

CPE BACH - Forssell SMP2 - TAKE 2 - Right Mic
CPE BACH - Williams High Speed - TAKE 2 - Left Mic

JS BACH - Forssell SMP2 - TAKE 2 - Right Mic
JS BACH - Williams High Speed - TAKE 2 - Left Mic

Special Thanks to Andrew Bove who provided his SMP2, converters and place for this test.

So you are doing a comparison in an apartment with street noise in the background, with two different microphones of the same model, two different positions, and you seriously expect to get any meaningful result?

Have you thought, before you did your comparison?

And I love the Kimber Kable KCAG Silver cable part...

Seriously dude. What would be normal deviations between two ribbon mics of the same model and what would be the expected audible deviations between two preamps whose frequency response is ruler flat in the audible band in relation to the differences in those two microphones?

Does you comparison make any sense?
(Hint: you can find the answer by thinking)

Thought - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[canderson]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

Does you comparison make any sense?
(Hint: you can find the answer by thinking)

Thought - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

****** - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[audio ergo sum]

correct spelling would be "*******"

[nosebleedaudio]

The room acoustics will produce far more difference than the difference you could hear between the two pres...
Being close to the window will create all kinds of reflections that will radically alter what you're hearing...

If I was going to do a test like this I would use ONE mic; record thru pre 1, repeat thru pre 2.
Using the exact same mic and source material...

And even then your speakers need to be very high end to make it even more discernable..
IMHO....

[sunflute]

Point well taken, I may try this. But with all due respect to the posters above....
I got enough information (based on my own listening experience) to ascertain that the SMP-2 would fulfill the musical needs I am after, even though I still love the sound of the High Speed pre.

If you listen carefully (in spite of the noise and the 2 separate mics) you can definitely tell that these 2 preamps handle the high frequencies of the flute differently and that's what I was after. IMHO not many pres out there that can handle recording the flute in a natural way and the SMP-2 succeeds quite impressively. For me it has been years of searching and trying and like Ivo has said now I can forget about the pre and worry about the music.

In any case, I will take your points under consideration and may try this test again in a more controlled manner next time.

Peace.

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

The room acoustics will produce far more difference than the difference you could hear between the two pres...
Being close to the window will create all kinds of reflections that will radically alter what you're hearing...

If I was going to do a test like this I would use ONE mic; record thru pre 1, repeat thru pre 2.
Using the exact same mic and source material...

And even then your speakers need to be very high end to make it even more discernable..
IMHO....

[canderson]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

correct spelling would be "*******"

[bove]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

If I was going to do a test like this I would use ONE mic; record thru pre 1, repeat thru pre 2.
Using the exact same mic and source material...

If someone were interested, they could listen to these audio samples as you describe by listening to, for example: Take 1 (left mic) and Take 2 (left mic). Same playing position, same mic, different preamp, different performance.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

So you are doing a comparison in an apartment with street noise in the background, with two different microphones of the same model, two different positions, and you seriously expect to get any meaningful result?

Have you thought, before you did your comparison?

And I love the Kimber Kable KCAG Silver cable part...

Seriously dude. What would be normal deviations between two ribbon mics of the same model and what would be the expected audible deviations between two preamps whose frequency response is ruler flat in the audible band in relation to the differences in those two microphones?

Does you comparison make any sense?
(Hint: you can find the answer by thinking)

Thought - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who pissed in your cornflakes mate? Pretty easy to ignore the post if it bothers you so much...

Maybe sunflute and bove did not have the means to rent a studio to do this comparison - get a grip.

Thx for doing the comparison guys - I can barely hear ANY difference - more technical/performance driven than the gear, IMO. I realize mics are more important to altering tonal differences than a pre-amp, but pre's can most def. colour the sound too, albeit to an often much slighter degree.

cheers, and thx for posting these!

[sunflute]

Thanks

Originally Posted by PlugHead

Who pissed in your cornflakes mate? Pretty easy to ignore the post if it bothers you so much...

Maybe sunflute and bove did not have the means to rent a studio to do this comparison - get a grip.

Thx for doing the comparison guys - I can barely hear ANY difference - more technical/performance driven than the gear, IMO. I realize mics are more important to altering tonal differences than a pre-amp, but pre's can most def. colour the sound too, albeit to an often much slighter degree.

cheers, and thx for posting these!

[Corran]

By the way Sunflute, is this chain your choice for solo flute recording? I've never been happy with recording my flute playing but recently I've found the best recording has been with a pair of Oktava 219 LDC's with Joly's PE mod into a Sytek pre. That was what I used for a big recital I gave a last month (and I played the Partita, which is why I was a little sensitive about it!).

Of course every flute player's tone is different so what works for me might not work for you.

[sunflute]

Thanks Corran,

The Sytek was one of the first pres I tried and it was nice. When one records at a distance some of the difficulties with recording flute don't come into play as much as when one is trying to record up close or wanting in more definition (because the sound gets blended as it travels to the recording medium).

At issue is what happens with the high register of the flute while recording closer to the instrument. As you probably know, the air that is produced around the embouchure hole is around 9-10 Khz. Large Diaphragm Condensers (especially) and most condensers in general tend to give a slightly compressed presentation of those frequencies and when they get combined with the actual fundamental high frequencies of the instrument and up to about the 6 khz harmonics, the sound gets tight and unnatural. In this regard the flute is like a percussion instrument where it is important to capture the transients clearly and without harshness. That's why ribbon microphones are helpful. When we talk about pres....it is really hard to find one that is fast enough that doesn't sound sterile or harsh. The High Speed Pre succeeds with its amazing speed and is really great at defining the upper range of the flute without harshness. The SMP-2 however goes a little further IMHO in that (I don't know how) it does the same thing in a very natural manner.

In my search for pres I have tried some that sounded warm but not defined, others that were defined but harsh, others that were good but unbalanced in the whole frequency range, etc. The Sytek was nice (as far as I can remember) but it wasn't fast enough for me.

I hope my thoughts have been clear enough...

Peace
Marco

Originally Posted by Corran

By the way Sunflute, is this chain your choice for solo flute recording? I've never been happy with recording my flute playing but recently I've found the best recording has been with a pair of Oktava 219 LDC's with Joly's PE mod into a Sytek pre. That was what I used for a big recital I gave a last month (and I played the Partita, which is why I was a little sensitive about it!).

Of course every flute player's tone is different so what works for me might not work for you.

[Corran]

Cool. I have a stereo ribbon that I like close up, but for the distance thing those LDC's worked it seemed. But then again I don't record my playing terribly much.

Actually the best flute recording I've made was my professor with a pair of Earthworks QTC-1's about 40cm apart and 8-10ft in front of her and the pianist.

Oh and the Sytek I've got has some custom opamps in it from Linear Technologies. It's probably a bit faster than stock.

[sunflute]

Great!

The other reason I got the SMP-2 with the high gain option is to see if I can record at a distance with the ribbons and still get the level of definition that I like for my flute.

If you want to listen to some really great flute recordings...Great playing and Great recordings!...listen to the recordings that Philips made of Slovenian flutist Irena Grafenauer in the early nineties. Maybe they were done by the people at Polyhymnia who are famous for modding all of their gear. In particular a recording of the Mercadante Flute concerto in e minor. Just beautiful Bel canto playing and on the recording level, great balance between the flute and the orchestra as well as the level of definition.

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

.... I could not detect any major differences between the preamps.... Obviously they are both of similar class to me.

Originally Posted by jnorman

both sounded perfectly smooth, and seem to drive the ribbons well. i dont think i had a preference for either.

Originally Posted by Corran

....which sound pretty much the same to me....

Originally Posted by PlugHead

...Thx for doing the comparison guys - I can barely hear ANY difference - more technical/performance driven than the gear, IMO...

In spite of the imperfections of the test, the fact that not many people were able to prefer one pre over the other attest to the greatness of both preamps. Maybe a more controlled test would yield more discernible results. From my end, I am again grateful to Bove who made it possible for me to find out hands-on about the SMP-2.

[Remoteness]

Hey, do you guys want to do another (more controlled) test at my place?
If so, call or PM me and we'll try to fit it in!

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Hey, do you guys want to do another (more controlled) test at my place?
If so, call or PM me and we'll try to fit it in!

Now that's what I call helpful!

'audio ergo sum' - take note...

[sunflute]

Oh My!!!This is getting interesting now. Wow, Thank you for the offer.

I'm into it...I don't know if Bove would be available but I can PM you sometime next week and set it up. This is great. Thanks again!

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by sunflute

Oh My!!!This is getting interesting now. Wow, Thank you for the offer.

I'm into it...I don't know if Bove would be available but I can PM you sometime next week and set it up. This is great. Thanks again!

Very cool; we'll have to bend Bove's arm a bit if he's not into it.

[sunflute]

I hope Bove can do it, but if he can't no matter because
I have since bought my own SMP-2
so I can bring both preamps for the test!!!

Thanks again Steve, this is really great and kind of you.

Gearslutz is Great!

[ISedlacek]

Just if possible, record stereo, not mono (that is so much limited in its nature)

[brle]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Just if possible, record stereo, not mono (that is so much limited in its nature)

Are you sure? Check the latest (monaural) scientific discoveries now!
Mono Micing a Symphony Concert

Sascha