Upright Bass - What Would You Do?

[amanitas]

Have a session coming up where we are doing Accoustic Bass on one song.

Given both a huge live room and a nice wood panneled iso booth as options, and the following gear list:

mics:
B.L.U.E. Cactus
B.L.U.E. Blueberry
B.L.U.E Kickball
Royer R121
(2) Cascade Fathead
(2) Neumann TLM103
(2) AKG C414B-ULS
AKG C451B
Beyerdynamic M160
(3) Sennheiser MD421
Sennheiser E602
Sennheiser E 609
ElectroVoice RE-20
Audix D1
(2) Audix D2
Audix D4
(2) Shure SM81
Shure SM7B
(4) Shure SM57

outboard:
Chandler Germanium Preamp
Avalon 737 Channel Strip
2) Neve 33421 Preamp
Trident S100 8 Channel Preamp/Eq
Trident Flexmix Channel Strip
Focusrite RED 8 2 Channel Preamp
Empirical Labs Distressor
Summit TLA100
Crane Song Trakker
Anthony DeMaria Labs CL1000
(2) UREI LA4
Focusrite ISA428 8 Channel Preamp
DBX 160A
Manley Dual Mono Tube DI
Avalon U5 DI
Lexicon Vortex

What would you do with this setup?

Thanks in advance,

Danny

[dbbubba]

The Cactus, BlueBerry or even TLM103 will work well enough.
Just listen for the best position.

Try mic'ing back about a foot to 18" from the bridge aiming between the F-hole and the bridge.
There is usually a magic spot in there somewhere!

The Chandler germanium, the Neve or the Avalon should all work well enough.

[TTatman]

Here are couple of things that have worked for me:

1. 414 about 1 foot away, cardioid pattern, pointed at the neck, where the neck meets the body. (C12 works great for this).

2. Use a pair of heavy duty rubber bands to build a shockmount in the bridge for the 414. Sounds surprisingly good. You might need a taste of the DI for presence. The player can move around all he/she wants, and the sound will stay consistent. You'll also have workable isolation from other instruments.

Good luck.

[tysonviolin]

I would use the Blueberry (or the cactus) through the Focusrite red Pre (since it was mentioned that the room sounded nice, it would be good to hear it uncolored by the pre). I would then rout the recorded bass back out through the distressor and compress to taste. A little harmonic distortion could be nice. If I had a black 1176 I would use that instead though.

[suedesound]

My favorite standup recording I did was a 47fet about a foot off pointing between the bridge and f hole with a KM84 closer in pointing at where the neck attaches to the body for string sound (blended in under the 47) through GML pre's.

I realize none of these are in your gear list, but if you have anything similar info might be worth something IE fet condenser, small cap, clean preamps.

I also sent the blend out through an LA2A in the mix

[Thumper]

Depends on what you're trying to do with it. Jazz trio is going to be a completely different setup than rockabilly where the slap sound is almost more important than the body tone.

Just think of it as a big acoustic guitar. Mic the body to get the... body, and the neck to get the sound that's coming from the neck.

Just make sure that the muso understands that it's VERY important to be quiet with his breathing. The mic on the neck will be very close to his mouth.

[amanitas]

The arrangement is very sparse on a singer songwriter type of vibe. The accoustic bass is taking up about 30-40% of the sonic space in the track as it's one of 3 foreground voices (the other 2 being fender rhodes and lead vox) surrounded by some ambient guitar noises and such. Bass has the most motion of any of the parts. Everything is recorded already, including a fake bass part via Trilogy that doesn't sound terrible. Just going to replace that with a real bass player. So isolation isn't an issue.

Thanks a lot for all of your replys!

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by amanitas

The arrangement is very sparse on a singer songwriter type of vibe. The accoustic bass is taking up about 30-40% of the sonic space in the track as it's one of 3 foreground voices (the other 2 being fender rhodes and lead vox) surrounded by some ambient guitar noises and such. Bass has the most motion of any of the parts.

Hey Amanitas- I have found a M160 pointed up the neck to get the neck sound nice (as M160 is a softer mike still with brightness- so the string thwang is not annoying but is detailed and real).


Then on the body which is soft and warm- use a LDC that is hard and bright to bring out the texture of the body without the mud. I have found the NT2000 very good- and I suspect that a mike like the avantone cv12 would be good.

Then you mix the M160 for the neck with the LDC (body) to taste.

I also suggest that before tracking- find the phase coherent spot in your room where teh bass is in phase with room phase.

Regards

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by amanitas

The arrangement is very sparse on a singer songwriter type of vibe. The accoustic bass is taking up about 30-40% of the sonic space in the track as it's one of 3 foreground voices (the other 2 being fender rhodes and lead vox) surrounded by some ambient guitar noises and such. Bass has the most motion of any of the parts. Everything is recorded already, including a fake bass part via Trilogy that doesn't sound terrible. Just going to replace that with a real bass player. So isolation isn't an issue.

Thanks a lot for all of your replys!

Distance! The real size of an accoustic bass develops at least two or three feet away depending on the room.

An old trick that might work is to close one ear with your finger, have the guy play, move around until you find a place where the sound seems to focus and stick a mic there.

I'd probably go with the 103 or the Royer. And add the 451 about a foot away on the high string side pointing at the neck body joint in case I wanted a bit more definition in the mix.

[infiniteposse]

I didn't see this trick mention in a quick scan of other replies...

I've got some thinner flexible packing foam that I can roll around a SDC and then thread inside the bridge, wedged against the body. This way you can do the M160 trick listed above. The 414 idea was similar, but mounting the mic sounded a little more complex.

Last time I tracked Upright, I also got great results blending my under bridge SDC with a EV 635 that was pointed towards the fretboard where the neck meets the body. The 635 was nice because it cut through a very dense mix. Strange choice, but perfect fit. Not a good fit for what you're describing though.

It sounds like you've got a great room to work in, so after the through the bridge mic I'd just throw up a nice room mic and see what sounds nice. I'd be personally curious what the ribbon might do, but I don't know that ribbon and it's voicing, so I'm not sure it's the best fit for the job.

If you would, please let us know what ends up working post-session. Upright's a challenging instruments and I'm always eager to hear how people get sounds they're happy with.

Good luck.

[amanitas]

Amanitas - The Ventriloquists - Going To Go 05 04 10 - SoundCloud

FWIW this is what we ended up doing:

Cactus 10 feet away through the germ
414 pointed at F Hole maybe 2 feet off the floor, 6 inches away
451 pointed at fingerboard towards where it meets the body, both thru neve
Royer behind the players head by his ears, focusrite red
RE 20 2 feet in front on the other side of the 414 through Avalon 737
DI through Avalon M5

I think we ended up not using the cactus because of some noise issue the germ was having.

One of my favorite sounds I've ever been involved in getting. Erik Kertes on the upright bass, Crown City Recording with the room and the gear....

[sonare]

Every spring I record a festival that includes bass players such as Roland Guerin and Edgar Meyer. These guys would NEVER agree to the old "foam-wrapped mic" wedged into the bridge. The way in which the sound of the instrument is changed will not be acceptable to an artist. I have had several reject attaching ANYTHING-- including the DPA clamps and suspensions. Often it sounds NO different, but the bass player has the last word.

Over the years I have tried almost everything (except a U47 FET thanks to $$) including RE20 (the bassist insisted), DPA 4060 and 4099, DPA4006, KM184 etc etc. Out of all of these the RE20 was the most successful. I am not saying it was absolutely the best sound, but when it came to "sitting in the mix" it was surprisingly the best. Also-- try to avoid the iso booth if possible. The ears are the best cue system. And avoid a pickup like the plague-- I have never heard one that sounded good enough to record.

[klaukholm]

Is there any arco going on or is it all pizz?
If it is arco, the game changes and mics like the 103 will sound awful unless a a gritty sound is goal.
Are the strings metal, gut or synthetic?
What is the rest of the ensemble?

Rich is right that you need to ask before you mount anything on a bass.
On a good bass with a good player, any hardware attached to the strings or bridge will act as a mute.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by sonare

Every spring I record a festival that includes bass players such as Roland Guerin and Edgar Meyer. These guys would NEVER agree to the old "foam-wrapped mic" wedged into the bridge... <snip>

I don't know, the last time I worked with Roland he didn't have a problem using a "foam-wrapped" KM84 in the bridge of his bass.

As of late, I've been using a KM84 suspended with a few rubber bands which does lessen the muting affect;-)

Some bassists are very cool with experimenting and trying new attachment tricks.

That being said, many aren't into having anything attached to their instrument.

[klaukholm]

Steve,
it may well depend on which instrument they have with them. I would be a little hesitant about messing with his Edgars Gabrielli bass.
It also matters less if it is all jazz pizz as the muting of the bridge is less of an issue.
For some reason there is a lot less respect for expensive old basses compared to violins and cellos. Would you even consider mounting anything on a strad cello bridge?

[DannyL]

My go to mic for low strings is a Gefel UMT800. I find that the newer Neumans are a bit sterile in this application.

I would try the AKG. The "magic spot" between the F hole and the Bridge is probably the sound post, which is generally speaking, the best place to start with any violin family instrument. If you are worried about isolation, use the figure 8 pattern and point the back of the mic into a baffle, keeping other (unwanted) sound sources at 90º to the mic. Shockmounts are an absolute must, regardless of the mic.

Speaking of figure 8, I'd bet the Cascade or even the Royer would sound pretty good..... Actually, my first choice may be the Csscade.

I would not use much in the way of processing, just get the best sound you can, with good transient response. If it sounds good with no processing it will sound sound good, period.

Regards;
Danny

[klaukholm]

Danny, I want to understand precisely where you mean.
The soundpost is (should) be directly below the treble leg of the bridge which makes both the bridge leg and the post equidistant to the f-hole.

[RTR]

Don t think so hard about it...last time I had to record an upright, I had a very crap choice of mics to use..ended up using a DI from it and a Cad pencil mic and it turned out great, in the middle of the control room!

[DannyL]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Danny, I want to understand precisely where you mean. The soundpost is (should) be directly below the treble leg of the bridge which makes both the bridge leg and the post equidistant to the f-hole.

Yes, this is correct. As I said it is a good starting point. If the sound post is not exactly right, or the player (or the piece) favors the low strings you may want to adjust. The distance from the Bass will vary depending upon the player, the room, the ensemble, the mic and other factors, but I would start at 1 foot (30 cm) or a bit farther away. The trick is to balance the length of the fundamental notes (a 20hz note is 4 feet long) that are being produced with the overtones, for a balanced sound. Farther away - better bass response, less definition. Generally 30 - 45 cm is pretty good.

Regards;
Danny

PS: Your mic selection is pretty good. You should take some time with this, Bass Viol is difficult to get right. And it will make a huge difference. So you are right to spend some time thinking about this.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by DannyL

The trick is to balance the length of the fundamental notes (a 20hz note is 4 feet long)

The fundamental frequency of a note with a 4ft wavelength is actually 282.15Hz; which almost corresponds to middle-C (261.6Hz)

A 20Hz fundamental produces a 56.6ft wavelength.

Since you are close-miking the bass you do not need to get too concerned with wavelength, as the room is not really a part of the sound of most jazz. Also, the first harmonic is what will give you the subjective bottom end. Kjetil can surely offer more detail on this matter since the double-bass is his instrument.

Rich

[DannyL]

Originally Posted by sonare

The fundamental frequency of a note with a 4ft wavelength is actually 282.15Hz; which almost corresponds to middle-C (261.6Hz)

A 20Hz fundamental produces a 56.6ft wavelength.

Rich

My error.

I believe a 20 hz note is actually 56.5 ft long.
Wavelength
Which will also come in handy when you want to build speaker cabinets, control rooms and concert halls.

Sorry.
Regards;
Danny

[PRobb]

I always found upright bass to be one of the more difficult instruments to record. It is hugely context dependent. In some contexts it's all about the low end "whoomph". In others that low end makes it impossible to blend.

The balance between bottom and note articulation is the challenge.

In a lot of situations, cheaper plywood basses sit much better than high end carved ones.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I don't know, the last time I worked with Roland he didn't have a problem using a "foam-wrapped" KM84 in the bridge of his bass.

As of late, I've been using a KM84 suspended with a few rubber bands which does lessen the muting affect;-)

Some bassists are very cool with experimenting and trying new attachment tricks.

That being said, many aren't into having anything attached to their instrument.

I've had good luck with the km 84 too, but I put it on a stand. I like to get that extra "finger noise" that you don't get when the mic is in the bridge. Actually, I use a km54 which is the tube version.

My favourite bass mic system is a km54 on by the plucking hand and a ribbon mic on the body of the bass below the f-hole on the g-string side.

[sonare]

If you are not in an ISO booth or using LARGE gobos, how do you deal with leakage? (esp out friend the ride cymbal)

Rich

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by sonare

If you are not in an ISO booth or using LARGE gobos, how do you deal with leakage? (esp out friend the ride cymbal)

Rich

Too much to explain here. When I get back home we can talk on the phone.

The short answer is:

I like the leakage.

Think of how direct-to-2 Track jazz recordings were done in the 50s and 60s. If you know what you're doing it is not a problem. Remote engineers do this all the time.

[sonare]

I think of leakage as my friend EXCEPT when the cymbal is being sucked into the center where the bass is often panned. In any case the cymbal presents a special irritation-- EQ it out of the bass sound and there went the finger articulation!

Rich

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by sonare

If you are not in an ISO booth or using LARGE gobos, how do you deal with leakage? (esp out friend the ride cymbal)

Rich

Nothing is as dead as the side of a figure 8 mic.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by PRobb

Nothing is as dead as the side of a figure 8 mic.

And nothing is as wide as a 9ft grand or a drumkit.

Rich

[Remoteness]

We just finished recording and broadcasting both Newport Folk and Newport Jazz festivals (main stage) and we recorded a lot of pick-ups and DIs.

In some cases that's the only output we got from the upright bass.

IMO, a little EQ and your favorite plug-in or hardwired device goes a long way when you cannot get your way...

I mean, what else can we do?
We can cry and pout about it all day long, but it will get you nowhere when there is no choice but to get a decent tone for the broadcast and capture.

It is what it is and that is that.

[sonare]

Those festivals are outdoors unless I am mistaken-- mine is indoors so it is a different thing entirely-- more like a session with an audience and very light PA.

Rich