Vocal/piano (Brahms) - which mix do you prefer?

[d_fu]

Three slightly different mixes of a vocal recital I recorded just the other day. Which one sounds better? The difference is subtle, so don't try on laptop speakers...

Will provide details about the mic setup and the difference between the mixes after I've heard a few opinions. If there's anything to comment/criticize, please don't hesitate. There are some odd distortion artifacts here and there, but they appear to be some kind of acoustic phenomenon, as they are audible on all the mics (so it's not just one channel overloading).

The reverb is all natural, BTW. The hall wasn't even half full...
The choice of some mics may have been less than ideal in these unforeseeable circumstances.

Daniel

[pschneider]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Three slightly different mixes of a vocal recital I recorded just the other day. Which one sounds better? The difference is subtle, so don't try on laptop speakers...

Will provide details about the mic setup and the difference between the mixes after I've heard a few opinions. If there's anything to comment/criticize, please don't hesitate. There are some odd distortion artifacts here and there, but they appear to be some kind of acoustic phenomenon, as they are audible on all the mics (so it's not just one channel overloading).

The reverb is all natural, BTW. The hall wasn't even half full...
The choice of some mics may have been less than ideal in these unforeseeable circumstances.

Daniel

To me, "braun1" sounds best. There is a nice overall balance between vocal and piano; neither sounds too prominent or aggressive.

In the first sample, I hear the piano as too "boomy" - as if there is a boost in the 400 Hz region. Some bass notes are sustained too long, overshadowing the rest of the measure. There is a prominent resonance in the piano around 0:10.

In the last sample "braun2", the stage seems a little more remote or slightly muffled - as if the performers were positioned further back.

I do like the natural reverb - the half empty hall might have been a pity for the performers, but it provided for a nice recording...

peter

[MaTr1x2051]

Braun1 definitely the best to my ears. Balance is very nice. The piano here is the best of the 3. The voice doesn't sound a whole lot different from take to take. I can't determine if you used a pair on the piano and a spot on the voice, or if you found a very magical spot for a single pair in the hall. The piano definitely sits much further back than the voice. But even in Braun1, the piano is still a bit muddy... like it could use a cut around 150-200Hz? And is there any way to get rid of some of that ambience?? Its... overpowering.

I've attached two clips of my own that were done in different spaces with different setups. The Duparc is from a live concert, in a very very live space, done with just a pair in the hall - 9' Bosendorfer concert grand. Baby Doe was from a session in a smaller sized church done with a pair in the room, a pair on the piano, and a vocal spot. Sadly, an old upright piano on this one. Hopefully it sheds some light on how I like to hear piano and voice.

[videoteque]

D_fu, the difference is subtle. I seem to prefer the braun sample, it seems a little more 3D to me!

MaTr1x2051, I prefer the Baby Doe one, it's more "like being there" to me, even if the piano is poorer.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by videoteque

D_fu, the difference is subtle..

It is indeed. But considering how small the change in the mix is, it is interesting how much of a change that makes.
Details soon, after I've (hopefully) collected a few more opinions.

Daniel

[hughesmr]

Daniel, to my ears these are really splitting hairs ... even listening back to back, any differences I perceive are extremely subtle, maybe even psychoacoustical in nature because I'm LISTENING for differences!

That said, if I had to pick I think I'd go with braun1. I think the differences are mainly on a piano spot and the weight you get from it. (Of course, I'm probably completely wrong on that one!). The vocal and piano perspectives just seem to me to be most naturally balanced in braun1 ... but, no problems with any of the three IMO.

[David Spearritt]

Daniel, its too subtle for me, well at least listening serially with good monitoring. I didn't load them into separate DAW tracks and flip, maybe I should have. It's a shame such a recital was in such a reverberant space. I would have gone for the driest techniques possible. Thanks for posting, will be interested to hear what you are trying to examine with this post.

[d_fu]

The space as such isn't overly reverberant when well-attended... It's the same hall where I recorded e.g. this.
A while ago, the seating was changed, and now all the chairs have wooden backrests, where there was some upholstery earlier. Seems to make quite a difference, and not necessarily for the better.

Give me another day before I post details...

[didier.brest]

First I was preferring braun2 because of the lows of the piano that I hear better under control with Beyerdynamic Pro 990. May be just a matter of balance between the piano and the singer ? I was feeling braun1 as an intermediate between braun and braun2. Then I checked the levels : braun2 is 0.5 dB quieter than braun, braun1 being in between. After having balanced the levels, I don't know which one I prefer. So close... Well, I keep my first impression and take braun2.

PS I just saw your pics after having send this message. Could you make us listen some AB comparison between the Josephson and the Neumann ?

[BrianHanke]

I'm going to vote for braun2. The reverberation in braun is a bit too much for my taste, and I feel slightly the same about braun1. braun2 seems to me to be the most controlled-sounding version.

[brle]

Difficult one, but i vote also for quieter version aka braun2 - sounds more balanced to me.
Thanks!
Sascha

[d_fu]

Thanks for the comments.

The setup for the Brahms is this:
2 Neumann KM 131 with diffraction spheres for mains (1 m AB), and three Beyer MCD 100, the world's first "digital" microphone, two on the piano, one for the voice. First time I tried all three together. Given the empty hall, a hypercard on the voice may have been better.

The difference between the mixes is only a 1 dB reduction of the level of the main mic (spots unchanged) from braun to braun1 and again to braun2. Since this does not change the overall level much, I didn't adjust that... IMO, the change sounds like more than just 1 dB... I tend toward braun2 myself, not entirely sure yet.

Originally Posted by MaTr1x2051

But even in Braun1, the piano is still a bit muddy... like it could use a cut around 150-200Hz? And is there any way to get rid of some of that ambience?? Its... overpowering.(...) Hopefully it sheds some light on how I like to hear piano and voice.

Thanks, wil try this hint. I also prefer the Baby Doe...

Originally Posted by didier.brest

PS I just saw your pics after having send this message. Could you make us listen some AB comparison between the Josephson and the Neumann ?

Look again, the posting contains some samples, even if it's only a mediocre student orchestra.

Daniel

[mathieujm]

Nice !

But I prefer Braun2

JMM

[Roland]

I actually go with Videotech on this one, for me the more "bloom" on The original has more life, the second sounds fine, the third one sounds too sterile, with your explaination I can understand why now. Of course it's your choice, but the first captures more a sense of the occasion.

Regards


Roland