FOH engineers, whats on your tech rider?

[jude]

just wondering what gear you guys are specing for tours these days?

im a bit old school in that i usually ask for midas desks, KT comps, DBX gates SPX 990s amd m2000s

so whats the thought these days? are you moving towards digital desks, or do i have some fellow slutz who still go the old school approach?

Jude

[bishopthomas]

I tend to work the medium sized club scene and really have to take what I can get. Although there is a rider in place just in case we need to refer to it. I usually go the "NOT" route rather than listing the "gotta have its." No Behringer or Mackie is an obvious one. Then the console must have X amount of channels, Y amount of pre fade sends, etc. This basically eliminates everything that sucks and leaves me with decent gear that is perfectly acceptable to pull off the show.

As far as the rest of the gear: PA system adequately sized and tuned to the room (of course this is subjective, but it's mine and the band's subjection that matters in the end). No Behringer dynamics or ACP88. Then there's the drum riser spec, lighting requirements (no haze, low lighting, etc) and shore power requirements when we used to travel in our own RV.

Digital desks: I'm usually glad to see them with they show up but it's not necessary. I don't have shows saved on external storage. I probably should, but the M7CL doesn't load scenes, and since that's the most common digital console in my world I don't take the time to setup my laptop with Studio Manager to talk to the console. At festivals I like to have an analog console, though. No matter how much time I spend on digital I will always be quicker on analog.

[George Necola]

8 bus desk (minimum), extneral compressors available for each bus.

prefer midas, work on M7cl too if necessary

metal sounds to my ears better on an analogue desk.

[MidasHatesGold]

analog desk: midas xl200 or any xl...
must have 8 vca´s
heritage as well
or soundcraft MH
digital: maybe digico...would try xl8

outboard:
d-two/m3000
yam Spx
a few dbx 160, drawmer
prestine EQ (BSS etc.)for PA equing
a channelstrip for main voc. e.g. Avalon etc.

Mics:
sm58
sm57 snare t/b
beta56/MD421 or beta 98 on toms
beta 52/91 kick
sm57/md421/606 guitar
bss di box
km184 hi hat/OH


PA:

Line arrays:
L´acoustics
d&b
Meyer
EAW
Adamson

or a good old Turbosound flood or flash....yeaahh

depends on the music (this would be my rock set up)

[Neps]

When I do get out to do some FOH I try and get a Yamaha PM5D at least.. I hate having to try and sort out transportation for racks of outboard. I don't specify mics. Got a nice collection that I travel around.

When I can specify the PA system, I normally try to go either EAW or TurboSound. But, sometimes I do ahve to get along with Alcon's and Nexo. Here I prefer the Alcons.

For small venues, where there is no budget, I'll just use whatever is available.. And then just take my own outboard gear. dbx, drawmer and Lexicon in 2 nice, compact flight racks.

[jasonraboin]

I carry a console, processing, and all mics, so here are the highlights of my current audio rider...

-High quality PA that delivers clear sound to EVERY sold seat.
-Acceptable systems include: D&B Q1, Meyer M’elodie, DV-DOSC.
-Other systems, including non-line array systems MAY be acceptable.
-ALL SYSTEMS MUST BE APPROVED BY ARTIST PRODUCTION MANAGER
-All systems must include a low profile front fill on a separate send.
-Smaller format line arrays will require subs on a separate send.
-Larger line arrays, like V-DOSC and Milo will not require subs.
-The PA must be flown when possible.
-The PA must be downstage of the artist position on stage. The artist prefers to stand 1m upstage of the downstage edge.
-Nothing may be hung in front of the PA. This includes “acoustically transparent” fabric.
-All crossover settings must be set to the most recent manufacturer settings.
-All system processing must be unlocked and accessible at mix position.
-Signal flow must be simple, and can never include running through another console. -The number of AD/DA conversions must be minimized.
-Mix position must be in the center third of the venue, between the left and right PA hangs. Mix position can never be in the balcony, a booth, or a control room. I would prefer not to be under the balcony.
-Mix position must provide a clear unobstructed view of the entire performance area.

[noamraz]

Jason expressed it the best way i could ever describe it.

You can use "X" brand PA system with a wrong positioning/configuration and getting an awful impulse response that date which will make your life tougher that date, and use the exact same PA system /w a different positioning/configuration with stellar results.

I will not specify a PA "brand" as long as i am sure that there is a good system engineer that will sign on the delivery of the requirments of that specific show (Every sit should have the option to hear and enjoy the show).

Regarding Digital Consoles, Sure we all liked the XL200's - Will they stay here forever?

Getting used to the Digital ones is the first step of using the expanded possibilities that the Digital consoles have to offer:
wether it is routings, synchronizations, recalls and basiclly new options that you did not had before.

IMHO.

[MidasHatesGold]

Larger line arrays, like V-DOSC and Milo will not require subs

did you mean ...will not require a seperate send???

a v-dosc without sb218 would be a bit boring, wouldn´t it???

+1 for ...not to be placed underneeth balconies

[bishopthomas]

Maybe he's not doing shows that require low frequency components.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by George Necola

8 bus desk (minimum), extneral compressors available for each bus.

prefer midas, work on M7cl too if necessary

metal sounds to my ears better on an analogue desk.

For the most part, I'm with you George!

I truly prefer the sound of an analog desk over a digital desk, but I had to conform to digital just like so many other live (and studio) engineers.

Hey, check this link out if you haven't already...
Midas Consoles | "Big" Mick Hughes talks digital consoles

[jasonraboin]

Originally Posted by MidasHatesGold

did you mean ...will not require a seperate send???

a v-dosc without sb218 would be a bit boring, wouldn´t it???

+1 for ...not to be placed underneeth balconies

Yeah this is for the folk act I mix. There are no drums and the upright bass player comes from the bluegrass world. We're looking for very little energy below 80hz.

Demanding to not be under a balcony is just not possible when you are playing theatres. I don't want to demand things that I know are impossible to provide or that I don't actually need. I also don't want to kill thousands of dollars worth of seats. It's a tough balance because you want to as many sell tickets as possible, but you also want to give the paying customers the best show possible. Mixing from a prime location provides, I think, the better show for the majority of the audience.

[George Necola]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

For the most part, I'm with you George!

I truly prefer the sound of an analog desk over a digital desk, but I had to conform to digital just like so many other live (and studio) engineers.

Hey, check this link out if you haven't already...
Midas Consoles | "Big" Mick Hughes talks digital consoles

ha! I know this article already. thumbsup

Big Mick has 3 assistants, running around, patching, doing soundcheck, eqing and the maestro is "only" turning some faders up and down.. I like that.

should happen to me one time..

[George Necola]

I forgot GATES! drawmer

toms and kick out..

[tombak]

Originally Posted by jude

just wondering what gear you guys are specing for tours these days?

im a bit old school in that i usually ask for midas desks, KT comps, DBX gates SPX 990s amd m2000s

so whats the thought these days? are you moving towards digital desks, or do i have some fellow slutz who still go the old school approach?

Jude

The same, why change such a great formula when the results are still great?

I can see a digital desk being great for large tours, festivals and such with total recall being the plus.
But for installations at major venues when you have a few dozen different touring engineers working there a month, it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm afraid that many of those expensive digital consoles will be in landfills in due time.

[trompetfreak]

Hi,

Ofcourse it varies for each band (size/channels etc) and venue and options, but on the rider most of the time it says:

Desk:
Analogue, Midas H2000/H3000
I love the overview and ease of a digital desk, but with the convenience of mute groups, vca's and the programming the Harry's can do.
Somehow I don't like working with Soundcraft, and I prefer A&H over SC, simply because I can work quicker on them. (in small venues that is).
If it must be digital, I can work with iLive, don't prefer yamaha's/rolands, and have little experience on XL8/PRO6/DiGiCo. I don't like the Digidesign Venue/Profile desks, since I'm not very familiair with ProTools.

Dynamics:
KT, Drawmer, D&R, BBE (acc. git, Bass, Kick, Floortom), DBX.
I don't like the BSS. Somehow they just don't do it for me. I tend to lose signal and the compression doesn't sound very nice.

Effects:
TC M3000, I love some of it's presets
Lexicon PCM91

As for mics:
I bring most, and love it if the venue provides some KM184's, SM58's, SM57's, Beta56's, MD421's, etc.

Oh, and what's on the rider too, Very important:
A good mixing position, 2/3 into the hall, centered. Not under balcony and not more than 30CM higher than the crowd. And light above the desk and outboard!

The PA is whatever the venue provides.



Nice thread!

[maxpidge]

Diet Coke,..... lot's of diet coke, not diet pepsi, not diet rc.... not diet coke with minerals!!!..... just plain freakin diet coke,... is it that hard!!!!


sorry it was a bad night last night....

[Murton]

My Wishlit (AKA Tech Rider) for when touring with an upstart powerpop/punk/indie outfit.

I provide my own console in most cases, Yamaha LS9-16, in the event we actually get a choice, no behringer anything if at all possible. We have behringer amps, behringer crossover and a behringer llimiter for our PA rig and they suck so horrendously that they only fill a gap until money is there to purchase the equipment to replace them.

So yeah on with it;

Decent mix position, centre of the PA, sweet spot pretty much. Or atleast ability to move to that sweet spot easily.

Some decent inhouse mic's to fill any gaps, I bring my own mickit with me.

A decent power situation. Atleast 3 different 20A circuits that I can use. this give me six power boards at 10A each to use for FOH(One Circuit), Backline(One Circuit), PA and foldback(two circuits). Anything less is approaching not enough power and things will trip due to current draw.

Any refreshments/food would be highly appreciated.

A plot of the venue if possible.

Definite load in/out times and set times. (Also act as part of the band management in this regard. helps to know when we can load in)


I haven't risen to the level of being able to specify gear yet, mostly because if you want anything, bring it yourself and we put on a lot of shows ourselves. I'll put our PA up myself (JBL Dual 15" + Horn top box and single 18" sub bins a side, soon to be two dual 15" + Horn Top boxes a side and two 18" subs a side.) Setup FOH myself, FOH gear which I mostly own myself. Mic everything up with my own mic's.

When we do get to the next level of being able specify gear on a rider;
I would aim at an M7CL at FOH, analogue at Monitors.
Analague FOH would require DBX Comps/Gates(Lots of comps), Lexican Effects/Yamaha effects. 32 Channel Console to cater for effect returns and parallel compression returns in addition to normal mics.

M88 and RE20 for Kick In/Out
SM7b/ SM57 for snare top/bottom
Beta 56A's for toms or SM57 or similar.
e906 and SM57 on every guitar cab, SM57 off axis, 906 on axis.
D112, SM57 + DI for Bass cab, SM57 off axis.
Keys Stereo DI
Vocals Rode M2, Beta 58A etc Any hyper cardioid dynamic or live vocal condenser microphone. Left, Right and Drums.
NT4, C1000s', 451's on overheads, same for hats, hat mic doubles as a crash mic, another same mic as a ride spot mic.

Much prefer drum clips for snare and toms. Small boom stands for kick and guitar and bass mic'ing. 4 stereo sends, drums, left, right and centre. Drums require one sub if FOH is delayed significantly.

[jude]

Originally Posted by Murton

4 stereo sends, drums, left, right and centre. Drums require one sub if FOH is delayed significantly.

are you talking bout stereo wedge sends, or IEM's?

[Murton]

Originally Posted by jude

are you talking bout stereo wedge sends, or IEM's?

Stereo sends. So two wedges at each spot, i.e. 8 sends so stereo keys translate properly and you can put vocals in the left and guitars in the right so you can free up headroom in the wedges as instrument so you can get conflicted frequency instruments seperate.

[jude]

sounds like a whole lot of extra cash and work to me. I always got by with mono sends for wedges (2-3 speakers on each send) and stereo sends for IEM's.

a well tunned mono send, with suitable processing, amps and speakers is all you need. really there isnt that much stereo information bands HAVE TO be able to hear on stage.

[Murton]

You can also pan thing the way they are on stage to avoid phase problems with backline.

Also, try hearing a stereo keyboard patch in mono, there are a lot of things they do with phase in reverb to make them sound entirely different.

There are some nifty things you can do with stereo wedge setups. It basically is just doubling the number of sends, that's all.

[studjo]

Originally Posted by Murton

It basically is just doubling the number of sends, that's all.

and monitor amps and wedges and some truck space and ...

[jude]

Originally Posted by studjo

and monitor amps and wedges and some truck space and ...

thats the bit i was getting at.

i completly agree about being able to do some cool stuff with stereo wedge sends, and to a small degree i sometime do it with my side fill. but thats fairly rare.

most stereo keys patches are just mono sounds with effects added. i wont sum a stereo keys input to a mono send, i'll just give them the left or right. and never once has there been a complaint.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by maxpidge

Diet Coke,..... lot's of diet coke, not diet pepsi, not diet rc.... not diet coke with minerals!!!..... just plain freakin diet coke,... is it that hard!!!!


sorry it was a bad night last night....

Sounds reasonable
TSG Backstage: Iggy Pop

You can read all the tech rider by starting on page 1 on the bottom.

[nathanvacha]

I'm actually looking right now for some resources, some samples for example, of how bands/managers are putting together their riders. I'm helping out a friend with something that's not really in my expertise.

anyone got any helpful links?

[jude]

have a look around this forum and if you dont find what you need post away, or feel free to PM me.

more than happy to help

[maxpidge]

Originally Posted by nathanvacha

I'm actually looking right now for some resources, some samples for example, of how bands/managers are putting together their riders. I'm helping out a friend with something that's not really in my expertise.

anyone got any helpful links?

i tour manage national bands, what would you like to know?

[nathanvacha]

I guess I'd just like to see a few that are a little more serious than the iggy pop one for example. Basically trying to find what would make my life and others' a bit easier.

Really not sure what I'm looking for. Ideas I guess.

[bishopthomas]

Are you taking care of the full rider (catering, load in times, etc.) or just the technical aspect of it?

[nathanvacha]

Not a huge time band, so catering/hotels, etc. are not applicable even. I'm more just trying to complete the tech side (which I've pretty well covered, I just want it to sound like it was done by someone who knows what they're doing) and then whatever needs to be stated clearly to ensure they don't get taken advantage of.
Guess I'll just go with it. If it's okay with them I'll post here for opinions maybe?