Vinyl and Classical Music

[Teddy Ray]

I've recently gotten back into vinyl, thanks to the donation of a Rega P2, which ive modified the heck out of. (better platter, subplatter, counterweight, mat, rewired tonearm, higher quality cart). The experience has been quite a revelation to me. I dont pretend to know all the ins and outs of the technology, but since I have gotten the Vinyl spinning, I have had no desire whatsoever to listen to CDs, (UNLESS I am doing something and want some "background" music).. I am now on a hunt to get vinyl copies of my CDs.. Classical music is great on vinyl, especially massed strings or chamber music. Listening to "hi fi Fiedler" as I type this.

With records, ..I dont know..it just seems as if the music has more "weight". more "real".. more "palpable"(stupid generic term I know). The soundstaging is excellent, 3-d.. whereas "generally" with CDs, the music is confined to the space between the speakers. Does anyone else feel this way?? And yes, there is more surface noise, maintenance, etc.. but the sound advantages far, far outweigh the small hassles.. Even my best, most valued CDs sound Anemic in comparison.

Id give anything to have been brought up in the golden age of analog/vinyl, to have learned to record in that manner.

I was also wondering are there any plans out there to reissue any classical albums on vinyl? I know there is a huge resurgence(best buy is now setting aside some floor space for vinyl only) of the medium.. One label in Germany, Acousence, has started...

Welcome to ACOUSENCE records - News

Can Digital Recordings Sound as Good as Analog? - ArtistshouseMusic

I have a feeling my poor CDs will be neglected for a while.


thumbsup

[Corran]

For the last couple of years I've been scouring flea markets and antique shops for classical and jazz vinyl records. I really enjoy listening to them as well! Even though I have a junky player.I bet I'd be blown away by your record player. I'd like to have a really nice one someday.

[luigichelli]

Well, you simply like the non-linearities, distortions and crosstalk that the vinyl has. It's a "colour" that many people loves :P

[boojum]

FWIW - And how our opinions change, even those amongst us who "know." When CD's came out and the CD version of Billy Joel's "Turnstiles" was released it was rushed by some audio addicts to be listened to in a high-end audio dealer's shop in Danbury, Connecticut. Raves about the clarity of tone, the lack of surface noise, rumble, wow and flutter. The vastly improved bass and greater dynamic range and greater clarity. This was in a lengthy article in AUDIO.

Then, about ten years later, "Turnstiles" was again discussed for its great tone, amazing clarity, and so on. And this time it was the LP and how vastly superior it was to the CD in all ways. And the article was, again, published in AUDIO.

The inherent distortion of analog "seems" more pleasing than that of digital is how I have seen it explained.

As for myself, I have two turntables and ~200 - 250 LP's. They're somewhere around here. For me the trade-off of surface noise and all the other attendant distortions of LP's just is not worth it. I cannot say which is better. It is factual which has better specs. But we can't all love the same woman, or the same method of getting sound recorded. The real rub is the signal chain. If the LP has digital recording and/or mastering, is it still an "LP"?

It's all beyond me.

[Plush]

Vinyl is fantastic, now that's for sure.

I still put on a record regularly and enjoy the feeling it gives to me and listeners at my house. Often my friends will comment on how much they like the record sound and how organic it is.

I don't mind the extra maintenance of the record playing system or the occasional tick and pop. I've kept all my records.

The newer ones I've liked have been those from TACET in Germany and the Capitol reissues on 180 gram vinyl. Currently digging the brown album, "The Band" on Capitol.

My system is olde, olde, olde. Linn Sondek LP-12 from the 70's with a Shure V-15.

[mixedupsteve]

I love vinyl too. I have a Technics turntable from the 70s and an Eico HF81 amp from 1959. Alot of rock records are being reissued and even new records sometimes come out on vinyl. Sometimes they have a different mix on the vinyl version of a record that is more of a minimalist mix which I like.

[Teddy Ray]

I didnt know TACET did Vinyl, sir..

have to get some of those. the Sondek is one of those tables that has achieved legendary status, like the Thorens and the ilk...


Listening to Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall now.

Originally Posted by Plush

Vinyl is fantastic, now that's for sure.

I still put on a record regularly and enjoy the feeling it gives to me and listeners at my house. Often my friends will comment on how much they like the record sound and how organic it is.

I don't mind the extra maintenance of the record playing system or the occasional tick and pop. I've kept all my records.

The newer ones I've liked have been those from TACET in Germany and the Capitol reissues on 180 gram vinyl. Currently digging the brown album, "The Band" on Capitol.

My system is olde, olde, olde. Linn Sondek LP-12 from the 70's with a Shure V-15.

[matyas]

Agreed. I loves me some classical vinyl. Yes, there are distortions and non-linearities, but you can't tell me that the (by modern standards) cruddy converters that were used on my favorite DG records from the 1980's are distortion-free, can you? The vinyl distortions are just more fun to listen to. However, if you really want an experience, go listen to some well-recorded 1/2" or 1/4" tape. On a good, well-aligned machine, it's DC-to-daylight!
P.S.: It's fun to have conversations like these when the overwhelming majority of people out there think even CDs are quaint.

[Chris Wilson]

During the CD boom, much digitally recorded classical music was made with A/D technology well below the level of what we're working with today.

Seeing as how a new multi-disc changing CD player costs a few hundred dollars, but a decent D/A (like we use) costs a grand or more, it's no surprise you engineers think CD's sound like a mason jar of ass. The early 90's are especially bad IMO so I usually buy historic recordings that have been put on CD if I want a piece that badly. I do however, hear new classical recordings I like a lot more.

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

I was also wondering are there any plans out there to reissue any classical albums on vinyl? I know there is a huge resurgence(best buy is now setting aside some floor space for vinyl only) of the medium...

My friend John, who owns the record label Sub Pop, was telling me about a band (I forgot the name) who has something of a hit record out on the label, and most of the sales are vinyl. Man is that good news! The kids want to sit down and listen to music instead of walk around with it on their iPods!

Also, the last time classical music set a market trend was Artur Schnabel's Beethoven Sonatas circa 1935, so it's no surprise the vinyl revival is coming to classical music late.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Chris Wilson

Seeing as how a new multi-disc changing CD player costs a few hundred dollars, but a decent D/A (like we use) costs a grand or more, it's no surprise you engineers think CD's sound like a mason jar of ass.

Actually, I have a very nice esoteric(brand) cdp at the studio and an equally nice RAM Modded hd970 at home...and there are some CDs that I love(Fone records "Ludus Danielis, Morton Lauridsen "Lux Aeterna", anything on Waterlily or Opus 3, Delos, and "Organ Spectacular" (Dorian, now liscensed to a 3rd party) and "Cantate Domino" Proprius...oh and Harmona Mundi "Osteroratorium", Te Deum, ECM and a couple others) but in general, Vinyl is immensely more pleasing, real sounding, and addictive.

the new stuff is no better, in my opinion..actually with all this "hyper real" gear (millennia, dpa, DAD, prism, etc) , the sound is more offensive, in my opinion.

My friend John, who owns the record label Sub Pop, was telling me about a band (I forgot the name) who has something of a hit record out on the label, and most of the sales are vinyl. Man is that good news! The kids want to sit down and listen to music instead of walk around with it on their iPods!

That is great. My daughter is being bombarded with my grandaddys country 45s and plenty of my own..

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

the new stuff is no better, in my opinion..actually with all this "hyper real" gear (millennia, dpa, DAD, prism, etc) , the sound is more offensive, in my opinion.

Are you sure the gears are responsible of that ? I think we can do very pleasant recordings on cd. It's more from the recording, mixing and mastering techniques and from the references we have in mind. We are not obliged to have all the instruments in our face.

But yes, I always listen to my old LPs on my old Connoisseur turntable and like (sometimes) all these distortions.

One question : what is your feeling when you record your vinyl on your favorite daw thru your favorite AD ? Except the fact that you don't see the LP turning on your great turntable

JMM

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by luigichelli

Well, you simply like the non-linearities, distortions and crosstalk that the vinyl has. It's a "colour" that many people loves :P

Possibly. If one wants to find out if it's the vinyl record (ie. master) one like or the turntable and vinyl as a media it's just to record your favourite vinyl with a good AD and then set up a blind listening test with the same material on vinyl and via a DA.

Please report back! :-)


/Peter

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by Chris Wilson

My friend John, who owns the record label Sub Pop, was telling me about a band (I forgot the name) who has something of a hit record out on the label, and most of the sales are vinyl. Man is that good news! The kids want to sit down and listen to music instead of walk around with it on their iPods!

It's true. My daughter asked me for a Rites of Spring (Dischord)record and a turntable several years ago.Since then she has bought severl new releases also on vinyl Many others still issue new stuff on vinyl as well as reissues. I bought a copy of Yankee Hotel Foxtrot from Sundazed myself. There are many lables putting out new stuff still.
Many ebay sellers too:
eBay Store: Search results for Sound City Internet.

[Plush]

I enjoy the vinyl but no way do I think that cd sounds bad.

Why are you writing that in a forum based on producing and making recordings for cd?
I make my living by recording music to be released on cd.

A well made cd sounds very good indeed.

[boojum]

^^^^^ Indeed.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Plush

Why are you writing that in a forum based on producing and making recordings for cd?

Because it is the way that I feel. Lord knows, it wasn't an affront or an attack on anyone here. I was just discussing an opinion of mine.

A well made cd sounds very good indeed.

yes, that is a given. and there are many, many CDs that are great(Waterlily, Opus 3, Tacet, Dabringhaus and Grimm, ECM, Fone)

I dont think I ever said CDs sounded"bad" ... but next to vinyl releases, they do sound a bit "anemic" , lack weight.. Obviously there are exceptions, but as a general sort of thing, I feel that the sound from vinyl is more real. You've said yourself "I still say that the *sound* of a good recording on tape is the best there is"
, which is what I am saying..only about records. I havent had enough experience with tape (well, I havent heard enough full recordings on the medium..)

as I said, obviously there are exceptions, too many to list here, but as an "overall" sort of thing, I prefer Vinyl...and as fate would have it, many cutting lathes are roaring back to life. Thats a good thing.

I did say, and do forever say, unapologetically ....that the sound of DPA>>Millennia>>>medium is hospital sterile.

[Chris Wilson]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

I did say, and do forever say, unapologetically ....that the sound of DPA>>Millennia>>>medium is hospital sterile.

Is it boring equipment or trends in production style that are to blame? What would make modern recordings sound better to you? Would old microphones help? A tape machine?

Personally, I get annoyed by certain styles of engineering, especially with microphone placement. I'm not often able to guess what brand of microphones and preamps are in a signal chain, though sometimes I have suspicions.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Chris Wilson

Is it boring equipment or trends in production style that are to blame? What would make modern recordings sound better to you? Would old microphones help? A tape machine?

Personally, I get annoyed by certain styles of engineering, especially with microphone placement. I'm not often able to guess what brand of microphones and preamps are in a signal chain, though sometimes I have suspicions.

re the millennia/DPA/etc comment..I speak from experience there. I gave it about a year and a half or so, couldnt grow to like it.

I think it is the "sterile" gear coupled with the "perfection" editing coupled with the sound of too many mics, off-balanced loud production..


as I said, some labels out there really impress me(aforementioned Opus 3, Yarlung, MA Recordings, Waterlily, "SOme" Chesky, Dorian, Pope Music, Dabring Haus and Grimm, Tacet, ECM, Stockfisch)

but a lot of the "major" stuff doesnt inspire me.

[mpdonahue]

One comment-
From a production standpoint I for one couldn't have been more happy to see vinyl go the way of the Dodo. Back in the day, there were probably only a half a dozen cutting engineers that I would trust to cut a good side of classical music. Even then it normally took at least 2 test cuts to get a side that was even close to the master tape.
Then, factor in the variations in pressing, galvanics and the quality of vinyl and it was miracle that anything sounded decent. It took TREMENDOUS effort from a bunch of very knowledgeable and skilled people to make a decent record.
(Never mind the inherent problems with vinyl - Decreased fidelity at the inside of the record, wow and flutter, surface noise.....)
Maybe it's just me, but the love affair with vinyl is mostly people that have never heard a master tape. If they compared the record with the source, they would never go back.
As always, YMMV.
All the best,
-mark

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

One comment-
From a production standpoint I for one couldn't have been more happy to see vinyl go the way of the Dodo. Back in the day, there were probably only a half a dozen cutting engineers that I would trust to cut a good side of classical music. Even then it normally took at least 2 test cuts to get a side that was even close to the master tape.
Then, factor in the variations in pressing, galvanics and the quality of vinyl and it was miracle that anything sounded decent. It took TREMENDOUS effort from a bunch of very knowledgeable and skilled people to make a decent record.
(Never mind the inherent problems with vinyl - Decreased fidelity at the inside of the record, wow and flutter, surface noise.....)
Maybe it's just me, but the love affair with vinyl is mostly people that have never heard a master tape. If they compared the record with the source, they would never go back.
As always, YMMV.
All the best,
-mark

Yes, those "technical" things have been discussed, but there is no accounting for taste... the vast majority of "audiophiles" prefer vinyl by a huge margin... (at least if activity on all the major audiophile forums is an indicator)

Perhaps all the effort required, all the painstaking details...perhaps that is what makes the results great. You have a set of parameters to work with from which you cannot deviate..it takes a lot more effort to get good sounding results..

As far as that goes, Kavi Alexander (whom I respect and admire greatly as an engineer) refuses to listen to any thing but vinyl, says it sounds much closer to what he hears on the master tape.

I do have a lot of great sounding CDs, mind you,but it seems like a lot of the spacial cues and harmonic content are absent when I compare my CD versions(some of them anyway) to their LP counterparts.

I am very, very glad that Vinyl is on the rise again. maybe i am just experience honeymoon syndrome, am bowled over by the newness of vinyl(to me) ... but my early hunch is that I really, really love it. a very "reach out and touch you" sort of sound.


YouTube - Greek Audiophile

[Chris Wilson]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

From a production standpoint I for one couldn't have been more happy to see vinyl go the way of the Dodo.

Someone had to say it!

[boojum]

deleted

[Teddy Ray]

Horses for courses. Luckily , I only have my ears to contend with, and noone elses.(and since it is obviously puzzling to some that ive mentioned records)What ive discussed is no less relevant in this day and age than someone discussing recording on a reel to reel machine. I wonder why people still talk about recording to tape? or using tube mics? Ah.. the sound. that thing.Vinyl and Tape are both Ancient, yet still much in demand....

I work with CD too, hell. I have to.(I have a project coming out in June, btw) but...if I had my druthers, id be running a big old ATR, an enormous console, and an all tube recording chain..


One would figure that in a discussion forum...that there would be an air of open-ness and acceptance, that ideas could be freely bounced around, so long as noone was harmed or insulted. as i listen to mostly classical, as I consider myself a "location classical" guy(hack), I figured this forum was a good place to post. Of course, i've been wrong before.

[videoteque]

LPs quality varies greatly and not all LPs are better than the CD, of course.

Leaving besides technicalities, I too find easier to loose myself in the music with LPs than with CDs.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by videoteque

LPs quality varies greatly and not all LPs are better than the CD, of course.

Leaving besides technicalities, I too find easier to loose myself in the music with LPs than with CDs.

quality varies a LOT. I love very very good vinyl. But anything else - CD every time. And for orchestral I'm afraid its CD all the way for this recordist!!


Like old jazz records though - for entirely different nostalgic reasons

[Plush]

Any engineer who started when the LP (and cassette) were the only release mediums knows that the LP does not sound like the master tape. But certainly that is not how the listener judges whether or not the recording is a success. Only engineers judge the release medium that way.

The LP lives as a recording and the the extra care and extra effort needed to bring out a good recording on a LP is part of the engineer's job. It is an expensive proposition. Lazy or cheap will produce a poor result in 2009 just as it did in 1969.

As far as classical music is concerned I think that the LP is more successful with chamber music and mid size groups. Heavy bass content found in organ music, some heavy symphonic stuff and the overtone complement of choral music, for example, is not rendered very well.

The sound on LP is heavily compressed compared to the master tape now that's for sure.

That said, LP releases by TACET in Germany compare very well to the same release on SACD. What does that say about commitment to quality?

Of course a Naxos release by a middling orchestra will sound poor whether released on LP or on a cd.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by videoteque

LPs quality varies greatly and not all LPs are better than the CD, of course.

Yes, of course. I havent heard any really bad ones yet, but i've no doubt that they are out there.

Leaving besides technicalities, I too find easier to loose myself in the music with LPs than with CDs.

as do I. I think the music has a real, lifelike, 3d quality on vinyl.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

Yes, of course. I havent heard any really bad ones yet, but i've no doubt that they are out there.


.

i've heard far more bad than good. But then again that's the same with CD - for different reasons though.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Plush

Of course a Naxos release by a middling orchestra will sound poor whether released on LP or on a cd.

very true - and i've had to do a few of those..... note to self : pick your gigs VERY carefully !!

[matyas]

Originally Posted by Chris Wilson

During the CD boom, much digitally recorded classical music was made with A/D technology well below the level of what we're working with today.

True, and I've occasionally complained about going back and listening to CDs from the eighties and early nineties and being disappointed with the sound. However, there are some recordings of that era that still sound really good. Just last night, I was listening to Ensemble PAN's disc "Ars Magis Subtilior" - gorgeous medieval music, stunningly recorded. I bought this disc around 1994. Out of curiosity, I checked the record date - 1987, released 1989. I'm guessing straight to DAT or something along those lines - definitely straight-up 16-bit, but certainly still holds up.