Help me spend my money!

[Big E]

Greetings all. Well after I think 2 years of debating it, 18 months of lurking on GS, and equally long amounts of time getting other completely unrelated projects finished, I've decided to finally liquidate my wallet of some cash and step off into the abyss of recording!

I'm in the process of putting together a remote rig (HD24XR and Yamaha MLA-8 8-ch preamp), and where I definitely need some suggestions are in the mic department. My plan is to do some live recording starting w/ friends and friends of friends. I think it will be mostly jazz initially, maybe some classical stuff thrown in later once I figure out which cables go in which holes! So what I'm looking for some help on is putting together a reasonable set of mics to use. My current, vast inventory of mics consists of an SM57 and an MXL V67G. Whoopee!

My current thinking is to stock up so that I have at least 8 mics to fill up the pre, and my max budget is $1000. Obviously I'll be bottom-dwelling on the mics, but let's be honest - given my near-zero experience, I think it's probably smarter for me to start with the cheap ones and learn how to use them first. As I get a better understanding of what I'm doing, I can upgrade.

After some research on here, my starting idea was:

1 SM57, $100
2 SM58, $200
1 Sennheiser e906, $190
1 CAD M179, $140.

Including the SM57 and V67G I already have, that puts me at 7 mics total and $630. I was thinking the e906 for guitar, and maybe the M179 for Remoteness' 1-mic drum set approach. I think I have the 57 and 58 on there mostly because they seem to be so universal, but don't necessarily have specific uses in mind.

I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts, and eventually posting my first, feeble but enthusiastic efforts at recording!

Dave

[Corran]

I'd get another couple of 179s for saxes/winds, or Oktava 219s which I use on sax a lot.

I'd also get a pair of SDCs for drum overheads and use the 179 as a FOK mic if you needed it, but that's me. I have not tried Steve's technique but I'm sure it works. I just like what I get with two OH mics.

Maybe a cheap ribbon or two for guitar and bass. Two Fatheads would do fine I think, though I don't use them. I have some eclectic ribbons that you probably won't find casually.

Good luck!

[hollywood_steve]

Obviously I'll be bottom-dwelling on the mics, but let's be honest - given my near-zero experience, I think it's probably smarter for me to start with the cheap ones and learn how to use them first. As I get a better understanding of what I'm doing, I can upgrade.

you may find that many here disagree with this.....

I'd rather buy two very good mics that I would keep the rest of my life than spend money on stuff you will hate in 6 months.

I have never regretted buying great mics, I can't imagine saying that "I wish I had bought 6 cheap mics instead of that one great pair." If you a real beginner, consider learning to record in stereo at first. Buy 2ch of great sounding gear and expand to multi-track as your budget (and skills) allow.

Have you ever looked at the prices cheap mics bring 2nd hand? You might as well give them to the dog to chew on. Good mics hold their value, and sometimes even increase in value.

Just my opinion....

[fallforward]

I would concur with the post above about buying fewer good mics right away. Although you can have it both ways. I would buy mics that can be modified at OktavaMod - Affordable Boutique Microphones That way you can get into them cheaply now, and then have them upgraded later (as opposed to turning them into chew toys!) If you want something now that won't have to be upgraded I would suggest picking up a used pair of Shure KSM44 and see what you can do with them. Learn all of the stereo micing placements that you can do with multipattern mics: XY, ORTF, AB, M/S, Blumlein, and once you are getting good results with that and learning what method works best for which ensemble/room/situation, start adding in other mics.

I jumped into micing everything right away when I started this game, and the resulsts were really bad. I went back and did it the way I mentioned above and that built a solid foundation that I continue to build upon.

Good Luck!
Robby

[Daniel Stark]

Yep that was my experience too!!! Using a half dozen or more mics with no isolation is a terrible way to get started. How can you distinguish between mic problems, room problems, phase problems, etc in that situation?

I would recommend putting that $1,000 into a stereo recorder and a pair of mics (Good recommendations so far, I would add a pair of ksm-141). This is because you want to use your gear as much as possible, and bringing out the HD24 and MLA-8 rig all the time will not be practical---- "Hey man, we are about to set up and play, want to come record us?" ------ "Yeah. let me throw my mics and recorder in my backpack! I'll be there in half an hour." Cool. You will learn fast this way. You already know what cables go where, but if you don't, that is by far the least of your worries

BTW the idea of getting mics to fill up preamp channels is SILLY!!!! Learn to appreciate having those empty channels around....Remember conversion artifacts, distortion, and noise increase with more channels so in general it's better to use fewer. Unless you can get a warm fuzzy feeling from having 6 empty pres and 22 empty channels of conversion (I am saying that seriously!!! because a 24 track recorder is a self fulfilling prophecy, just like plug-in EQ's and compressors!!), you should really consider a 2-track setup. ------Apogee Duet?----- if you have a mac is almost a no-brainer at your stage of the game.

[Corran]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you guys. He said "mostly jazz" and I personally have never liked a straight two-mic recording of a jazz combo. That might be personal preference but so be it.

My favorite jazz combo recording I've ever done is still my first one, where I didn't have a clue and just went with my gut. It just has something about it. No isolation, just 8 mics direct into my recorder. Of course my newer recordings are better but I guess that first one just had some magic about it (it helped the players were excellent!).

Anyway, today's market is full of very good, inexpensive mics. I will again suggest Oktava. I just recently got two of my 219s modded from Michael Joly and I'm stunned. They are simply too good to have only cost me about about $350 each.

[Daniel Stark]

Well at least we can agree on something----I have an Oktava 319 that I really like, and it cost me $80. Those are nice mics.

[Big E]

Thanks for the input all, it's appreciated.

On the 2-track vs. ">2"-track question, I guess I had a few thoughts on this. First off, starting out I will of course be recording mostly friends that are out there doing gigs. Thinking about where most of those gigs are, they don't seem like they'd be particularly conducive to setting up a pair of stereo mics 10 (or however many) feet in front of the band. I can think of two spots immediately where that setup would put the mic stand in the middle of the (only) aisle that the waitresses use. That would last all of about 30 seconds before it came tumbling down in someone's gin & tonic. And at the same time, these are hardly halls with a nice sound where I would think you might want a stereo mic approach.

Another thought is that I was probably not as clear on my approach as I could have been. I definitely plan to spend some quality "practice time" working with the mics individually, understanding their characteristics, and then doing some practice recordings with just a couple of mics. Some close-micing stuff, but also the stereo pair as others have suggested.

Lastly, I do know for certain that I have (if I get my self together) one opportunity to record several combos at a jazz camp going on in a few months. I know the guy that runs it, and they've never had anyone record it before, so I got the green light to use it for my own practice, no cost to him and likewise no guarantee on any results. For that, I know there are going to be some groups that are up around 7-8 players. So, that's my motivation behind wanting to "fill up" the 8 channels.

fallforward, thanks for the suggestion on the OktavaMod route. Sounds like a good idea.

[Daniel Stark]

I work with acoustic jazz and you can get a wide variety of tone from a good stereo mic--- Never mind a stereo mic and a solo mic mixed together! Put the mic closer for less room tone and it gets warmer as well (plus image widens with a stereo mic), so you aren't limited to the traditional classical sound. Managing the bleed between these two is a balancing act in itself and involves the band and mics more than the mix.

Also I challenge the statement that a stereo mic will be harder to place in a small club than 6 or 8 spot mics. Both ways necessitate some disruption but "Where there's a will there's a way".

[Daniel Stark]

One more thing, when you spot mic, you are still placing each mic. What you want to learn is how sound "blooms" over space (and reflects off of stuff) so you can find the optimum spot sonically------This is VERY difficult to learn by yourself (i.e. without a real band in a room). Isolation headphones and a cue mixer can help but it's not easy.

You say you intend to do some practice recordings with a stereo pair as well as some with spot mics.....See how it goes!! Better get busy if those jazz combos are in a few months, that sounds like a great learning experience.