Another "which Schoeps capsule for me" thread

[Corran]

So I just got a great deal on a used pair of CMC6 bodies! I'm super-excited! This is my college graduation present to myself.

Anyway, after reading every Schoeps thread around I've got a pretty good idea of what capsule I want but still want some feedback.

Here's my deal: I often record in pretty bad, fairly dry auditoriums. I'm every once in a while in a great church or something. I also record things other than classical, including jazz and folk music.

My short list include a pair of MK4s of course, a pair of MK21s, or possibly one of the omni pairs, but again I'm usually not in optimal acoustics. However I'm usually really hurting for reverb.

I've read some peoples opinion that the MK4 is good but not great? I like the idea of the MK21s, that you can use them in semi-AB and semi-ORTF both.

Alright, so give me your opinions guys! Now, I really wish I could get a pair of MK5s but the used price on those seem to be close to two sets of regular capsules so I don't think it's worth it. However I'd be willing to push my budget if that was my best option and you knew where a well-priced set was. My budget is what normal pairs of capsules go for, $1000-$1500. I'd be willing to spend around $2000 for like two pairs or an MK5/MK6 pair.

By the way, if you know of someone selling some capsules let me know too please! I am wanting to buy these ASAP.

[Roland]

The Mk21's ae probably the most flexible in your situation. I personally love the Mk41's but I use them more as spots. The Omni's have by far the best bass response, however, as you yourself pointed out many of your venue's suffer from poor/dry acoustics and these are more likely to show up problems than help you solve them.

Remeber you should be able to hire just the capsules if you have a job that will particularly benefit from them.

Regards


Roland

[Plush]

Universal capsule is MK4 or MK 5. Don't fool around. Buy two today and be done with it.
Just buy them new and then you will guarantee that they are proper and not abused by the former user.

MK21 is a great sound. It is softer focus and is to be added after one has the basic cardioid capsule in house. If you just have one MK21, its strength is as a soloist spot mic.

If short of $$, get the MK4.

Nickel finish will stay looking nicer longer than grey nextel finish.

[7rojo7]

I have 3 MK5 and 3 MK21. MK5 is really hard to beat in flexibilty, 3 MK21 sounds great in an OCT, otherwise as LCR "flankers" for operetta or spots on harp or piano solo cello...
Cardioid sounds great on the MK5

[hughesmr]

I'm one of the biggest MK21 advocates around here, but I'd go with MK4 if you want to play it safe in widely varying acoustical situations. In nicer acoustics, you'd likely much prefer the increased "breadth" that MK21 gives you (IF you were A/Bing them next to MK4) as I do. But, given your description of where/how they'd be used, MK4 is the way to go.

My Schoeps pairs are in Nextel, and if handled tenderly (as one should do with anything one loves!) and kept in their box, they stay looking great. If you use the Schoeps mounts (not recommended), you will scratch them up over time .... the Shure A53M shockmounts are MUCH better mounts and are very easy on the mic bodies.

[Corran]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the recommendations so far. It's more or less what I suspected. I really want the MK5s but I think first and foremost how often do they come up used?? I understand that buying them new is "safer" but I've got to pinch the pennies. Anyone seen any for sale? And what's a good price for them?

I will probably get the Shure mounts since they are a good price. I've read about them before and they look good. Being nice on the bodies is a bonus!

[Bob Olhsson]

Mark 41 for ORTF style would be ideal.

It's also the Rolls Royce of motion picture dialog mikes so I wouldn't hold my breath looking for used.

[0VU]

I'm a huge Schoeps fan and have more of them than any of my other mics. The MK21 is my favourite capsule; I currently have ..er.. several of them, including six CCMs, and find them very useful in a variety of situations. Probably more useful than any other Schoeps capsule, perhaps with the exception of the MK5. I have more MK21s than any other capsule and use them more often. Whether I'd choose them as my desert island pair might be another matter.

Given that subcardioid isn't really a pattern which features large in the gamut of classic mic techniques, despite its usefulness, as a 'my frst Schoeps' you might want to go for something more conventional so you can get more experience of the Schoeps take on doing things 'by the book' before getting creative. In which case I'd say that your best choice would be the MK5. Yes, it's expensive but quality usually is, and despite the price I've always been happy I spent the money (I bought all mine used) and they've never lost their attraction. The choice of a 'real' omni and a 'real' cardioid in one capsule is very useful and opens up your options a lot. Of course, if you can find, say, cheap pairs of MK4s and MK2S's you then have the option of adding at a later date (or renting on odd days when you need them) two more CMCs to have twice as many mics without breaking the bank

Whilst I agree with Plush about the MK4 being a very solid choice, it's the one 'normal' Schoeps capsule that I don't really like as much as the others. I only have two and they don't get much use, far less now that I've got some MK22s. Strictly speaking the MK22s are another one of those 'odd' patterns that don't fit into anyone's go to list but for me, they work more or less as a direct replacement and fix for the things I dont like about the MK4. However they are NOT an MK4 and my previous comment about doing classic techniques by the book still applies.

So I guess my suggestion definitely would be MK5 as first choice, with MK21 as second and perhaps MK22 above MK4 on subjective preference but MK4 above MK22 on dispassionate consideration.

As for colour; most of mine are grey Nextel because I've always done mostly live work and on stage, under concert lighting, they're far less conspicuous and attract fewer comments from video people and LDs. Even though I look after them, the finish does get to look a bit tired after 15 years or so of heavy use (I used to average well over 300 live recordings per year) and the nickel silver does seem tougher. It depends what you're doing though. I'd still stick with the Nextel for live use; in the studio/on sessions it's not really important and the silver would probably win for really long term wear resistance.

[Corran]

Thank you for the detailed information 0VU!

From what I'm seeing a new pair of MK5's will run about the same as a pair of MK4's and MK2x's will so I have no interest in buying them new. So, do you or anyone else have suggestions on where to find them used??

And if you don't ever use your MK4's do you want to give a Schoeps newbie a really great deal???

[jnorman]

hi corran - i owned a pair of the cmc6/mk4's, before selling them off and getting a pair of DPA 4011s. i liked the mk4 capsules pretty well as a main ORTF pair, but i found them a little boomy as a spot mic, or close micing in the studio. in retrospect, i think i should have gotten the mk41 capsules for general ORTF/NOS use.

however, for you, i might suggest the mk2 free-field omnis. that is what ivo sedlacek uses to great effect with his intimate acoustic material. they are very versatile, and can be used up to mid field as a main pair (good for dry acoustic spaces), and make great spots for almost any acoustic instrument in the studio.

[Corran]

Hey jnorman...would you even suggest the MK2's in terrible high school auditoriums? I regularly use Earthworks omnis up-close in these poor rooms but haven't been terribly happy. It would be the same thing if I'm not mistaken?

Though the frequency-dependent polar pattern of the Schoeps should be much different than the Earthworks mics, which are almost perfect at all frequency ranges.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Corran

Hey jnorman...would you even suggest the MK2's in terrible high school auditoriums? I regularly use Earthworks omnis up-close in these poor rooms but haven't been terribly happy. It would be the same thing if I'm not mistaken?

Though the frequency-dependent polar pattern of the Schoeps should be much different than the Earthworks mics, which are almost perfect at all frequency ranges.

Including the subsonic muck range!

I'd strongly advise that you have a dealer send you a few pairs of capsules on loan ... MK4, MK21, MK22 (if you can get 'em), and maybe MK2H omnis. You really have to try them in your situation and see what you like. As you can tell, we all have our preferences and none of them may be yours!

BTW, I used to own a pr of QTC1s and they will show off everything bad about a room. MK2S is a different beast altogether, much more refined sound IMO, and the CMC6 does provide a gentle roll-off in the lowest of the low nether regions where you really need nothing on record. But, they are still omnis and they will still tell the listener what an awful room you were in .

[Corran]

I've just emailed Doug Oade to see what he's got on-hand. I'm actually only a few tens of miles from him so maybe he can be of help. Too bad his phone number goes straight to a message about mods to recorders!

[jnorman]

corran - in your OP, you indicated that the auditorium was generally dry, and if that is the case, yes, i would try to mic fairly close with free field omnis. if the space is ringy, like many auditoriums, omnis will not be a good choice. then i would back off some, and try the mk41 caps. but like oters are saying, it is best to try a few different capsules and see which actually work best for you. one of the best things i ever did was have bruce myers from DPA send me about 7-8 different pairs of mics at one time for testing - muy informative.

[Corran]

Yeah, "ringy" is definitely how I'd describe the auditorium I recorded in last week. One note would pop out every time it was played.

I've heard mixed reports on the 41, that you have to have it "just right," and unfortunately a quick setup and no sound check is the norm here.

I think I'm going to go with an MK4 or 5. I just need to find them. I'd still like to know if anyone has suggestions on where to find these used, and, what a good price for a set of MK5's would be.

Oh and I'll see if I can get some test caps in from Oade.

[desotoslo]

You have to face the hard facts, Bryan: they're all f'ing great.

I think the only other accessory you need is a bottle of champagne.

Cheers, congrats on grad'ing. I just did, too.

[desotoslo]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

I'd strongly advise that you have a dealer send you a few pairs of capsules on loan ... MK4, MK21, MK22 (if you can get 'em), and maybe MK2H omnis. You really have to try them in your situation and see what you like. As you can tell, we all have our preferences and none of them may be yours!

Great idea. Parker at Sonic Sense is a very helpful and friendly lady!

[Corran]

Oh yeah, the other option: break out the credit card and get two of each!

Congrats to us!

[Don S]

Congratulations on your graduation and having the insight to make a good investment. I'll add my own Schoeps experience to some already good wisdom.
Start with the MK4 or MK5. This why. There's alot of combined experience here with lots of high end gear and how to use it. But start making great recordings (or as close as you can get) with the MK4/5. You should be able to get 80-90 percent of what the "big boys" or "major labels" are producing with those alone. I went on to other capsules because I wasn't entirely happy, even at my best and under the best conditions, and what I wanted added to the pattern. I suspect the same for others here.
I am huge fan of the MK21 and yes it is probably the most flexible of the schoeps patterns. I use them quite frequently in a modified ORTF. But it took a couple years of using and hearing exactly what a good Schoeps ORTF sounds like before I knew what I wanted to change. Like Miles said "before you innovate, you have to imitate".

[d_fu]

You could do some pioneering and try the new MK 22 "open cardioid"...

[Corran]

Ha! I won't be the guinea pig! I wouldn't know what to compare it too, as has been said (excellent point, btw, Don).

Alright I'm actively searching for an MK4 or MK5 pair. I'll let you guys know what happens!

[7rojo7]

MK5, omni and cardioid switchable

[Plush]

We have our Schoeps mics rebuilt at the factory every 5-8 years. You would be surprised to know how often the factory says we need a new capsule installed. The nice part is that Schoeps factory service is reasonably priced and a new capsule does not cost the moon.

The reason I say this is that if you buy used capsules those too might need to be checked
for meeting spec.

That's the reason I suggest buying new.

It is rare that one sees MK5 for sale used.

[Corran]

Ugh, isn't that a rather short lifespan? What do they charge for a new capsule, if I can ask?

Yes I'm finding MK5s to be scarce. I have found some new, nickel MK4s being liquidated but they aren't matched and my CMC6's are nextel gray and I'd rather have matching caps...but I'll continue to look.

I have found one US dealer who since they can't discount them gives significant discounts on items purchased at the same time as the capsules. I might buy them new if I could get a couple mic mounts/bars for free with the deal!

[Withnail]

Our best SDC mics:

CMC6 + MK2
CMC6 + MK2h
CMC6 + MK21
and Gefell M300 (we liked them better than Schoeps MK4)

/Richard

[jnorman]

corran - keep your eyes on the taperssection.com "yard sale" forum - many schoeps products come up there for sale used.

[Corran]

Thanks jnorman, I was watching the TS Yard Sale forum and then went ahead and posted an ISO thread. I've now got a matched pair of MK4s on the way!

The best part about this whole thing is by being patient and watching for a deal I was able to get the whole CMC64ST set for over $1300 less than new. And both the bodies and capsules are apparently almost new.

Thanks for all the help from everyone in this thread!

(Now just hold me back from buying a set of MK2s and 21s!)

[mathieujm]

In france there are some MK5 to sale

look here

Petites Annonces


JMM

[Plush]

Right on! Corran

I'm pleased that everything worked out for you. The world of neutral mics is really a pleasant world. Sometimes one has to work even harder to get them to sound good but when you get them in the right position, you know that you have the best pick-up possible.

[Corran]

Plush, I mentioned this earlier but maybe you missed it. Is there any reason Schoeps says you need a new capsule so often? It seems like they have a really short lifespan.

Oh and I am very excited to be able to do some shoot-outs between these Schoeps and some more low-end mics, specifically a pair of Oktava 012s. I will also be doing a comparison of them with my Earthworks, both cardioid and omni when I get one of the omni Schoeps capsule pairs.

(I think the Earthworks define "neutrality" but I know you don't like them Plush. However I am interested in the difference in polar response in regard to frequency that the Schoeps will have, unlike the EW mics which are more or less flat at all angles and frequencies.)