Computers for Live Broadcast/Mixing

[gareth.h.rees]

Okay, so I'm considering putting together a system for multitrack recording with the possibility of mixing the tracks while its being recorded for a stereo feed to radio and/or cameras, or to create a CD to sell as soon as a gig is over.

I'm not too sure on exactly what gear I want to use yet, but I also have a studio, so want to be able to use as much gear as possible for both applications. I have an Allen and Heath Saber mixer at the studio, so don't really want to buy another mixer as it would be redundant in the studio. That being said, I could put together the following that would serve well for both..

Computer (either mac mini or G5 powermac)
2 * 8 channel preamps
Soundcard (RME multiface or fireface, or maybe digi 002?)
Control surface (Behringer fader thing)
Hard Disk recorder (for backup)

That lot comes to around £1200.

However, that leaves the stereo mix (my main "sell" perhaps) to the computer. To get around this, I could put together a more "hardware" based setup..

HDR
Mixer
4 channel compressor (inserts)
Bus compressor
Reverb

But that comes to near the same sort of money - and then I'm left short of a studio computer AND a multitrack backup.


So my question is, do you guys use computers for this sort of thing? I'm just thinking - they can't be that bad. I run a student radio station and we use two computers to run the entire broadcast (one playout, one web streaming).

No rush and open to suggestions - I probably haven't covered everything I need to to give a full picture, but just putting it out there to see what you guys think!

Cheers
Gareth

[gareth.h.rees]

Another point that I just thought of...

Are there any reasonably priced (around £500) interfaces that don't screw up if the computer crashes?

I know with the RME units you can flash the interface with the internal mixer settings, but with a mac you can't use "ASIO Direct Monitoring" to control the internal mixer with the DAW faders.

If I could find something that would be stable in the event of a disconnect, then that might be the best option?

[rumleymusic]

Are there any reasonably priced (around £500) interfaces that don't screw up if the computer crashes?

I use a Mackie 1200F at the radio station I work at. It is the most stable interface I have ever used. All the mixer settings are stored internally so there are no dropouts when the computer restarts. (I had a MOTU that did that ).

The 1200F is more than you are talking about price wise, but the 400F is in your budget and has the same overall features.

[chris319]

My first thought is that if you're going to video you need to preserve lip sync. Forget going through anything digital as that will introduce latency and throw off your lip sync.

I'd do the live mix on your Allen & Heath. Would it be possible to come out of the Allen & Heath after the mic preamps and into the multi-track recorder of your choice?

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

I use a Mackie 1200F at the radio station I work at. It is the most stable interface I have ever used. All the mixer settings are stored internally so there are no dropouts when the computer restarts. (I had a MOTU that did that ).

The 1200F is more than you are talking about price wise, but the 400F is in your budget and has the same overall features.

Ahh I was just looking at the MOTU's and they seemed pretty appealing, with the built in DSP on the software mixer etc!

Yeah the 1200 is too far out of my price range (but looks ideal!), but the 400 doesn't have enough channels. I want 16 minimum really.

Which MOTU did you have? Maybe they've fixed it with the v3 828 thing?

Cheers
Gareth

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by chris319

My first thought is that if you're going to video you need to preserve lip sync. Forget going through anything digital as that will introduce latency and throw off your lip sync.

I'd do the live mix on your Allen & Heath. Would it be possible to come out of the Allen & Heath after the mic preamps and into the multi-track recorder of your choice?

Good point on the video. In all fairness, video is the last on the list of priorities - I mainly want it for live broadcast and mixing live to two track so that I can burn off a CD really quickly after the gig.

I want 16 channels, and the facility to upgrade to 24 at some point would be nice, but not essential.

The mixer I have currently is far too big to lug around to gigs. Its a studio mixer, which is the main reason I don't really want to buy another mixer if I can avoid it. Would rather get a system that can get used effectively between the two functions.

Cheers!
Gareth

[huub]

With a rme interface you're able to have latency as low as 1.5 ms, so as long as you don not use hi latency plug ins, you're fine lipsyncwise..
Up to 15 ms is basically lipsync..
Can you add more faders with rthe behringer? Scrolling through fader banks without name display will make your mixing very slow, at least with 24 faders you can label em with tape..
Also, has your DAW a monitoring output, otherwise yo will not be able to solo without the rest of the world hearing it..

[LX3]

At that level, I just wouldn't go near it. In my experience, until you get to something like Pyramix or Digi Venue systems with serious onboard mixing, I think you're headed for a world of pain... Unless your mix requirements are very basic (no nice compressors, no reverbs, and possibly no opportunity to solo anything).

The mixers in general purpose DAWs are okay-ish for monitoring purposes (although i prefer not to disturb any part of a computer that might upset the audio going thru it, especially once the show's running) but I'd hate to have to do a broadcast mix on one... even with a fader unit.

I would try and find yourself a secondhand 01V96 instead and offload the mix end of things to that. Leave the computer (or the HD24 ) to handle the recording and then don't touch it during the show. You'll get so much more mileage out of a proper digital desk, and it's an investment that you'll still appreciate in two years time. I doubt you'll say that about a Behringer fader unit.

Plus, consider your setup time. Computer, interface and other paraphenalia, then mousing around all evening to add your EQs, compressors, bussing, other general setup stuff... Plus of course you still have to set mics, find power and somewhere to set up. You won't be packed and heading home until about two hours after the audience have left the building.

Just my 2c, but 2c based on experience.

BTW, I thought you were about to blow all your cash on mics?

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by huub

With a rme interface you're able to have latency as low as 1.5 ms, so as long as you don not use hi latency plug ins, you're fine lipsyncwise..
Up to 15 ms is basically lipsync..
Can you add more faders with rthe behringer? Scrolling through fader banks without name display will make your mixing very slow, at least with 24 faders you can label em with tape..
Also, has your DAW a monitoring output, otherwise yo will not be able to solo without the rest of the world hearing it..

Good point. Wouldn't have thought of the solo! However, most interfaces that I've looked at have a dedicated monitor out.

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by LX3

At that level, I just wouldn't go near it. In my experience, until you get to something like Pyramix or Digi Venue systems with serious onboard mixing, I think you're headed for a world of pain... Unless your mix requirements are very basic (no nice compressors, no reverbs, and possibly no opportunity to solo anything).

The mixers in general purpose DAWs are okay-ish for monitoring purposes (although i prefer not to disturb any part of a computer that might upset the audio going thru it, especially once the show's running) but I'd hate to have to do a broadcast mix on one... even with a fader unit.

I would try and find yourself a secondhand 01V96 instead and offload the mix end of things to that. Leave the computer (or the HD24 ) to handle the recording and then don't touch it during the show. You'll get so much more mileage out of a proper digital desk, and it's an investment that you'll still appreciate in two years time. I doubt you'll say that about a Behringer fader unit.

Plus, consider your setup time. Computer, interface and other paraphenalia, then mousing around all evening to add your EQs, compressors, bussing, other general setup stuff... Plus of course you still have to set mics, find power and somewhere to set up. You won't be packed and heading home until about two hours after the audience have left the building.

Just my 2c, but 2c based on experience.

BTW, I thought you were about to blow all your cash on mics?

Wise words! I think you're probably right really. Faffing with computers isn't ideal at the best of times..!

I was considering it to save some cash (for my microphones!) but yeah, in the long run it would probably do my head in

I've just had a thought that if I did go with a 01v + hd24, I could just buy one of the RME ADAT PCI cards and use the HD24 for conversion. Then I could get rid of my Multiface and Digimax FS... thats a good £700 towards the costs!

Though, this would leave me without a backup I think? The Mixer would feed the ADAT input of the HD24, and the HD24 output back to the mixer.. Unless there are ADAT splitters I wouldn't be able to send another lot of ADAT to the PC for multitrack backup?

This could probably make for a fairly compact set up too? I count:

Mixer (own case)
6u - HD24 + Stereo Recorder (HBB burn it - open to suggestions?)
2u - Mic splits

Only problem really is that the mixer only has 12 preamps. In all fairness, I doubt I'll regularly exceed this, but but of a bummer if I do need more.

Paul, how much do the yamaha's go for used? Just had a look on ebay and they seem to be in the £1000 region - thats quite a hit!!
What are the silver 01v's like? Keep in mind that I'm fairly new to this so I'm not looking for "grammy" quality stuff just yet

Luckily, this summer will be pretty busy in terms of work so I should be able to save up a nice bit of cash, but won't know until end of july sort of time how much I'll really have to budget on all of this!

My guess is around £1500 for mics and £1500 for the gear though.

Cheers for your help guys. I love this forum - way less bullshit than anywhere else I've come across!

Gareth

[rumleymusic]

Which MOTU did you have? Maybe they've fixed it with the v3 828 thing?

828mk3. It is fine when the computer shuts down, but when the drivers are loading during startup, the audio cuts out. Wouldn't recommend MOTU for live use.

[Roland]

I've seen a couple of posts by someone who is mixing live for broadcast, using protools and an Icon interface. Apparantly he is able to get channel counts in excess of 100 without problems. I also have heard that the Montreux jazz festival was broadcast using a Digidesign Venue console. Both of these are viable "computer based" solutions, however, not quite what you are talking about I suspect. Recording and mixing live with just a computer and no interface to give you "hands-on" control, would I suspect be a liability.

I would take special note of the posts by Huub and LX3, as they are both closely involved with this kind of work.

Regards


Roland

[deardaddy]

Hi,

I just did what Roland said with a PT system (HD2 Accel) and a Pro control.
Mixing with the Pro control and recording multitrack to a mac with Boom recorder.
It was a jazz festival here in Belgium.
The automation I recorded in PT will be taken to post if needed.

Pascal

[LX3]

Originally Posted by gareth.h.rees

Paul, how much do the yamaha's go for used? Just had a look on ebay and they seem to be in the £1000 region - thats quite a hit!!

£1000 is about right for one in good condition. Although the price of all Japanese gear is skyrocketing right now, so secondhand prices may well be on the rise too.

(Have you seen how much an HD24XR is these days? )

Watch eBay and hope you get lucky. OR... Build a little rack of outboard and a patchbay, add some multipin disconnects like the PA guys do, and take your Saber out to gigs. Although by the time you've done all that, you'll probably have spent more than you would on an 01V96. And it'll be bigger/heavier.

What are the silver 01v's like? Keep in mind that I'm fairly new to this so I'm not looking for "grammy" quality stuff just yet

Not really comparable at all I'm afraid - apart from the name. I think an 01V will leave you short of inputs, fx... everything.

But with the kind of budget you're talking about, I'm sure you'll be able to do things right. I've always wound up happier when I've steered clear of "make-do" gear, even if it's meant I've ended up stretched financially or it took longer to get where I wanted to be.

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by LX3

£1000 is about right for one in good condition. Although the price of all Japanese gear is skyrocketing right now, so secondhand prices may well be on the rise too.

(Have you seen how much an HD24XR is these days? )

Bugger! Yeah, I was going to buy a HD24 last year but never got around to it.. wish I did now! That said, I saw a mackie SDR go for £320, a HD24 for £550 and a D2424 for £500, so prices can be reasonable with a bit of patience. £1000 is quite a bit of cash... hmm!

Originally Posted by LX3

Watch eBay and hope you get lucky. OR... Build a little rack of outboard and a patchbay, add some multipin disconnects like the PA guys do, and take your Saber out to gigs. Although by the time you've done all that, you'll probably have spent more than you would on an 01V96. And it'll be bigger/heavier.

The Saber is 1.5 x 1 meters! Its BIG! and HEAVY! Two man lift minimum, so thats way out of the question! And yeah, would be left short of effects and whatnot then.

Originally Posted by LX3

Not really comparable at all I'm afraid - apart from the name. I think an 01V will leave you short of inputs, fx... everything.

hmm oh well!

Originally Posted by LX3

But with the kind of budget you're talking about, I'm sure you'll be able to do things right. I've always wound up happier when I've steered clear of "make-do" gear, even if it's meant I've ended up stretched financially or it took longer to get where I wanted to be.

Yeah. I think the 01v96 + hd24 combo is pretty versatile, and I can probably afford it if I work my nuts off this summer!

Only thing is how would I go about a multitrack backup? Since I'd be using mostly the desk pre's, I'm not sure that I'd have another feed for the 2nd multitrack?

ADAT Splitter??

Just out of interest - what headphones do you use? I'm leaning towards either DT770's or DT250's.

Cheers for all the help! The sort of work you're doing is exactly what I'd love to do! Did anything come of that foals gig you recorded? (pics on flickr) Love that band!

Gareth

[LX3]

Originally Posted by gareth.h.rees

Only thing is how would I go about a multitrack backup? Since I'd be using mostly the desk pre's, I'm not sure that I'd have another feed for the 2nd multitrack?

ADAT Splitter??

That is one area that is a lot easier if you have external preamps. But it's not such an appallingly terrible idea to daisy-chain the ADAT outputs of one HD24 to the inputs of another. I know, I know, if the first machine loses power... but I've never had an HD24 lose power altogether, and it's well-behaved about not interrupting the ADAT outs.

And massively preferable to NO backup.

You do get TOSlink splitters, and I have heard of one person that got them to work with an HD24, but they're fiddly old lumps of plastic. Ignoring the light loss they cause for a sec, three of them floating about in a system with nine optical cables wouldn't fill me with confidence. Although I've never tried it. Maybe with some glue...

Just out of interest - what headphones do you use? I'm leaning towards either DT770's or DT250's.

DT250s are pretty good. Haven't used 770s. But if I'm mixing for broadcast, I do my best to avoid headphones. They distort your sense of balance.

In any case, headphone choice becomes a little irrelevant if there's no isolation from the show itself. If you can't get away from noise, the best sounding headphones are the ones with the best isolation.

Did anything come of that foals gig you recorded? (pics on flickr) Love that band!

I've done two gigs with them... first one became the "Foals Live" EP. The Scala gig ended up in the archives (although a tiny clip from it did appear on The Culture Show). Would love to do Foals again, I'm a big fan too.

Good recordings often end up in the vaults never to be heard again, for a variety of strategic, or artistic reasons. Just the way it goes.