ideal analog gear for classical

[iratinhk]

Dear gurus,

I'm putting together my ever first studio at our music school. I intend it as a high-end recording/mixing environment for 5.0 surround classical. So far I have a PTHD rig with Prism A/D/A, Millennia HV-3D pres, and am planning on the Grace M906 controller. From my limited experience, and from what I've read, I think I am better off with a mixer-less studio, high quality pug-ins, but with high quality outboard analog gear. I could easily afford an SSL Matrix, but I'm not sure what I would actually 'mix' on it (other than 5 channels of signal with 5 channels of reverb, and for the money I could get a TC 6000, though digital).

So my question is, what high-end outboard analog gear would be ideal for classical music? Would merely running 5 channels through an SSL Matrix widen/improve my sound-field? How about running them through the input modules of an X-Rack? I generally use a touch of EQ here and there and sometimes a little compression.


Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[Doc No]

Originally Posted by iratinhk

Dear gurus,

I'm putting together my ever first studio at our music school. I intend it as a high-end recording/mixing environment for 5.0 surround classical. So far I have a PTHD rig with Prism A/D/A, Millennia HV-3D pres, and am planning on the Grace M906 controller. From my limited experience, and from what I've read, I think I am better off with a mixer-less studio, high quality pug-ins, but with high quality outboard analog gear. I could easily afford an SSL Matrix, but I'm not sure what I would actually 'mix' on it (other than 5 channels of signal with 5 channels of reverb, and for the money I could get a TC 6000, though digital).

So my question is, what high-end outboard analog gear would be ideal for classical music? Would merely running 5 channels through an SSL Matrix widen/improve my sound-field? How about running them through the input modules of an X-Rack? I generally use a touch of EQ here and there and sometimes a little compression.


Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Hi,

the SSL Matrix will not improve or widin your sound, it is just a controller to handle your Outboard!!! For classical Millennia is the way to go. Quantec-Yardstick and Bricasti will improve your sound easily, maybe a Millennia Tube-EQ. Put your money in acoustics, monitoring and microphones. You'll find fantasic plugs for "a touch of eq and compression", or you buy 2-3 Millennia-CS if you want to turn some knobs for eq and compression.

[tsvisser]

I too am of the school of thought that classical recorded in a minimalist manner - to include 5.1 recordings that use 5.1 mic techniques, is the superior way to go. As such, putting the preponderance of my trust into really good preamps direct to the (excellent Prism) A/D converter is a great way to go. EQ, which should be light assuming the recording itself was well thought out, is probably best "in the box" and putting the rest of your trust into an excellent monitoring solution, the m906, is spot on with what I would do myself. I certainly don't think that a mixer is necessary or desired in your rig.

[iratinhk]

Originally Posted by Doc No

Hi,
Put your money in acoustics, monitoring and microphones. .

Thanks for these suggestions. We do have a great room, a separate 25k budget for mics, and am planning on 5 x K&H300s (+ sub) for monitors.

[hollywood_steve]

you might want to ask this question over on the remote forum, this is a common topic of discussion over there.

I'll give you one opinion that is surprisingly common on the remote forum - you don't need to stick with the gear that is commonly considered "transparent" or super clean when working with classical. That doesn't mean you should go out and buy cheap prosumer gear that includes a single tube used to 'fuzz up' the sound. But nobody ever went wrong recording classical music through Neve, API, or other high end analog gear. (countless classical recordings were recorded through Neve and API consoles, including the standard console preamps, eqs, etc. and no one complained.)

On the Remote forum, you'll find one guy using the API 3124 4ch preamp for every one using Grace or Millennia multi channel preamps. Personally, I use the API 7800 / 8200 8ch mixer set up for both location recording and the minimalist mixing I need to do when I get back to the studio. Great analog gear is great gear - try to avoid preconceived notions that only ultra clean gear works for classical.

[dangoudie]

Originally Posted by iratinhk

Thanks for these suggestions. We do have a great room, a separate 25k budget for mics, and am planning on 5 x K&H300s (+ sub) for monitors.

You lucky lucky boy.
Plus the O300's are very nice if a tad mid shy.

[Svens]

Originally Posted by Doc No

Hi,

the SSL Matrix will not improve or widin your sound, it is just a controller to handle your Outboard!!!.

The SSL Matrix is a (amongst a lot more) analogue linemixer, and therefore has a own sound. Besides that, its also a Protools controller, so you can do all the mixing and automation in Protools while sending all your multitrack returns to the inputs of your Matrix, integrating all your analog outboard.

It is so much more than a controller to handle your outboard. Really a flexible and good solution for hybrid mixing with Protools, Logic, and whatever DAW you like.

Maybe its not for you, but try to get a demo on it somewhere, seriously a well thought design imo.

X-rack could be a cool if you only run 5-10 channels. you can't beat analog summing. Besides that, there's space for analogue eq/compression in the X-rack too. SSL lowered their prices for it a while ago...

[mxeryus]

Maybe the SPL Atmos 5.1 & Brauner ASM 5 is an option - I would love the possibility to record straight in surround!
You already have Millenia - would be my first choice for classical.

[iratinhk]

Originally Posted by mxeryus

Maybe the SPL Atmos 5.1 & Brauner ASM 5 is an option - I would love the possibility to record straight in surround!
You already have Millenia - would be my first choice for classical.

Great idea, thanks! This is very helpful.

[Teddy Ray]

I guess millennia would be the "token" answer, but I have never liked those amps. You see that chain in a lot of classical-oriented studios, though..(maybe part of the reason I dont like new classical recordings either?? )

They sound really "hospital lights" to me...not euphonic at all. There are better/more pleasing choices, in my opinion.


Id also have a look at

Pendulum, DAV, and Presonus ADL6000 amps.

All clean but with a bit of "sweetness".

[David Rick]

I do classical recording in surround. I use Millennia preamps, Prism converters, and the only excuse I have for not having a Grace m906 is that they're rather expensive and I'm getting by with a SPL SMC for now.

I have some nice mastering-oriented outboard (including a Millennia NSEQ-2, Crane Song STC-8, Lexicon and TC reverbs) -- for stereo. But for surround, I stay ITB, and increasingly so for stereo, too. I rarely need compression for classical work, and with the excellent linear-phase EQ plug-ins that are available, enduring an extra A/D/A conversion just isn't worth it.

For the cost of one decent outboard box, you could buy a Sequoia license. This DAW is sonically impeccable and includes basically everything needed to go from tracking to burning a "black" DVD-A in surround. What's more, it supports the source/destination editing paradigm that is so helpful in classical editing. (As another current thread in this forum will attest, students who are interested in classical work must learn to edit efficiently and accurately from a score.)

I say this, knowing you already have a PTHD rig. Certainly your students need to know PT, but those interested in classical work should also learn Sequoia or Pyramix.

Teddy and I are on opposite sides of the colored/uncolored divide. No hard feelings about this -- I respect the idea that a particular engineer may develop a signature "sound" that relies in part on a colored signal chain. But I think it's mostly a very personal thing that doesn't translate to other engineers and working methods. In a school situation, where students are expected to learn "standard" production techniques that can be taken elsewhere, I think you'd be best advised to stick with an uncolored signal path. Sixteen channels of remote-controlled Millennia preamps would be my suggestion.

Following the same theory, my own choice of the ADAM S-series for surround monitoring may be too idiosyncratic for an educational institution. The K&H monitors would be a more conventional choice.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by David Rick

I do classical recording in surround. I use Millennia preamps, Prism converters, and the only excuse I have for not having a Grace m906 is that they're rather expensive and I'm getting by with a SPL SMC for now.

I have some nice mastering-oriented outboard (including a Millennia NSEQ-2, Crane Song STC-8, Lexicon and TC reverbs) -- for stereo. But for surround, I stay ITB, and increasingly so for stereo, too. I rarely need compression for classical work, and with the excellent linear-phase EQ plug-ins that are available, enduring an extra A/D/A conversion just isn't worth it.

For the cost of one decent outboard box, you could buy a Sequoia license. This DAW is sonically impeccable and includes basically everything needed to go from tracking to burning a "black" DVD-A in surround. What's more, it supports the source/destination editing paradigm that is so helpful in classical editing. (As another current thread in this forum will attest, students who are interested in classical work must learn to edit efficiently and accurately from a score.)

I say this, knowing you already have a PTHD rig. Certainly your students need to know PT, but those interested in classical work should also learn Sequoia or Pyramix.

Teddy and I are on opposite sides of the colored/uncolored divide. No hard feelings about this -- I respect the idea that a particular engineer may develop a signature "sound" that relies in part on a colored signal chain. But I think it's mostly a very personal thing that doesn't translate to other engineers and working methods. In a school situation, where students are expected to learn "standard" production techniques that can be taken elsewhere, I think you'd be best advised to stick with an uncolored signal path. Sixteen channels of remote-controlled Millennia preamps would be my suggestion.

Following the same theory, my own choice of the ADAM S-series for surround monitoring may be too idiosyncratic for an educational institution. The K&H monitors would be a more conventional choice.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

+1
thumbsup

I will add a great collection of microphones that include not just one system like the atmos. Even though the atmos is nice, you want the students to experiment with different recording techniques; and positioning one mic system will not do the job.

Experimenting with different polar patterns from different brands will give the student the ear training necessary to be able to judge what, when and how to use the gear.

Just adding my 2 cents...
Pupo

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by David Rick

Teddy and I are on opposite sides of the colored/uncolored divide. No hard feelings about this --

No, Sir. No offense meant, Mr. Rick. Just a preference thing. I am only 5 years into this recording thing, and maybe as my engineering skills get better(I pretty much suck at the moment), my preferences will change.

My favorite recordings are from another time and place, and every thing I do is in an attempt to try to capture some of that "magic". The "sweet" stuff gets me closer to what I hear on the records I Love, but that is probably more a reflection of my inexperience.

[iratinhk]

"For the cost of one decent outboard box, you could buy a Sequoia license."

-Thanks I'll check it out. I've hear the Pyramix plugins are great.

"Teddy and I are on opposite sides of the colored/uncolored divide."

-I don't have much experience but my feeling is that I'd rather record colorlessly and experiment with color later. Perhaps the Millennia NSEQ-2 would be good for this?

"Following the same theory, my own choice of the ADAM S-series for surround monitoring ..."

-What do you do for bass management?

[iratinhk]

Originally Posted by jpupo74

+1
thumbsup

I will add a great collection of microphones that include not just one system like the atmos. Even though the atmos is nice, you want the students to experiment with different recording techniques; and positioning one mic system will not do the job.

Experimenting with different polar patterns from different brands will give the student the ear training necessary to be able to judge what, when and how to use the gear.

Just adding my 2 cents...
Pupo

I'll definitely do that, but haven't started researching it yet. I did see, however, that the Atmos is not longer in production, and our purchasing rules prohibit me from buying used. Any suggestions for a dedicated 5-mic system?

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by iratinhk

I'll definitely do that, but haven't started researching it yet. I did see, however, that the Atmos is not longer in production, and our purchasing rules prohibit me from buying used. Any suggestions for a dedicated 5-mic system?

Not exactly 5 mic system, but visit DPA's website and check out their surround structures. Not cheap at all but very nice and helpful. With that system you can change and try stuff, more versatile than the atmos.

Cheers,
Pupo

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by iratinhk

"For the cost of one decent outboard box, you could buy a Sequoia license."

-Thanks I'll check it out. I've hear the Pyramix plugins are great.

I don't have any direct experience on Pyramix, but its one of the only "other" DAW's that gets much respect on the Samplitude/Sequoia forum. When it comes to plug ins, "Sequoiatude" is no slouch either. The Sequoiatude plug ins and built-in effects are good enough that I own very few third-party plug-ins. The main one I use is a third-party linear-phase EQ plug in. Plus, I still use hardware reverbs, but not as often as I used to.

If you need to equip multiple workstations, one cost-saving trick is to mix and match Sequoia and Samplitude Pro licenses. You don't get source/destination editing in Samplitude, but you get pretty much everything else, and you can move projects between one and the other with no trouble.

-I don't have much experience but my feeling is that I'd rather record colorlessly and experiment with color later. Perhaps the Millennia NSEQ-2 would be good for this?

The NSEQ-2 was designed for tranparency. It's one of the least colored EQ's I've ever used. The tube path does sound a bit different than the JFET path, but it's not overtly "tubey". I hear a bit less midrange, but mostly what I hear is slower transient response.

Honestly, there's no shortage of "colored" gear out there. The question is, what kind of color do you want, and why? The kind of "paint" you'd apply on the main tree would probably be different than what you'd use on rear hall mics. If you're talking about doing something to all five channels, maybe that's a decision that could wait until mastering.

But don't get the wrong idea -- I'm not someone who is afraid to make bold strokes with EQ in the context of putting a mix together. I just don't want to add salt until I've tasted the soup!

-What do you do for bass management?

I use a Bag End Infrasub 12 Pro, which has 5.1 bass management built in. It integrates (pun!) beautifully with my ADAM S2's.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[Roland]

The benefit of Pyramix and Sequioa over PT is the editing side, especially for classical music. As David pointed out, quite possibly these days students need a good handle on PT, however, it's too slow and cumbersome for classical edits.

Regards


Roland

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by iratinhk

I'm putting together my ever first studio at our music school. I intend it as a high-end recording/mixing environment for 5.0 surround classical. So far I have a PTHD rig with Prism A/D/A, Millennia HV-3D pres, and am planning on the Grace M906 controller

That is pretty much a clone of our setup, it should serve you well!

I would consider a bricasti or three for colour,
Other than that I think getting some different colour mics would be a good way to spend money.
What mics do you have at the moment?

It may even be worth it to get a Sequoia or Pyramix on top of the PT for editing.
We edit our PT sessions in PMX when we need to do advanced editing.

[iratinhk]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

That is pretty much a clone of our setup, it should serve you well!

I would consider a bricasti or three for colour,


Other than that I think getting some different colour mics would be a good way to spend money. What mics do you have at the moment?


It may even be worth it to get a Sequoia or Pyramix on top of the PT for editing.
We edit our PT sessions in PMX when we need to do advanced editing.

-Well I don't think it would be a very exact clone without your B&W 801s! I think the next step up from the K&HO300 (or Adams) would be pretty expensive, like ACT

-I'm torn between buying multiple Bricasti (can't believe they don't have a 5.0 unit) TC 6000, Lexicon PCM96 surround, or plugins. The Waves IR360 sound pretty close to my PCM91, but I have no means to test the rest.

-At the moment only AKG414s, KM184s, TLM103, and U87s. I'm looking into some DPAs and Schoeps.

-Will do.

[iratinhk]

I note people don't have that many recommendations for analog processors. The main reason I started this thread was from reading quotes like Bob Katz's:

"The best solution could be having a good DAW, many good AD-DA and tons of good analog gears for eq and dynamic....That's my personal position." ...and

"You take a signal, pass it through D/A converters into an analog processor and the result is much wider. What's your conclusion?" BK

...well I don't have a conclusion (other than perhaps different panning laws) but I sure would like to know what type of processor/transformer/op amp etc. gives this "analog magic" if such a thing exists.

I realize that this is more on the mastering level, but like Ethan Winer, says, "Mixing classical is a lot like mastering". Perhaps I should have posted this on the mastering list.

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by iratinhk

I note people don't have that many recommendations for analog processors. The main reason I started this thread was from reading quotes like Bob Katz's:

"The best solution could be having a good DAW, many good AD-DA and tons of good analog gears for eq and dynamic....That's my personal position." ...and

"You take a signal, pass it through D/A converters into an analog processor and the result is much wider. What's your conclusion?" BK

...well I don't have a conclusion (other than perhaps different panning laws) but I sure would like to know what type of processor/transformer/op amp etc. gives this "analog magic" if such a thing exists.

I realize that this is more on the mastering level, but like Ethan Winer, says, "Mixing classical is a lot like mastering". Perhaps I should have posted this on the mastering list.

Well, classical music is different. You definitely want clean and straight to your DAW with the best mics, cables, preamps and DA's, monitoring through excellent speakers after a pristine DA conversion.

I know mastering engineers that use Millennia compressor but to add "colour" and saying MIllennia has a colour is actually weird. But I know for sure when tubes are part of the chain, some subtle touch will be added.

Instead of outboard gear you might want to get some nice plugins like Algorithmix EQ's and reNovator for editing and stuff.

Cheers,
Pupo

[4blades]

For recording classical, I'd have a look at this stereo preamp:
QES Labs - Tube microphone preamplifier for stereo recording techniques, stereo miking techniques, stereo mic preamp

[Thomas W. Bethe]

If anyone wants a really good audio console that sounds great and works great then I would look at this Welcome To Fairlight - Provider of Professional Audio Production Solutions not cheap but well worth every penny IMHO.

The preamps are great - the console is super transparent and has some very nice built in eqs and has a lot of built in features that make it usable for a vast number of different tasks including 5.1 surround. The consoles start at about $80,000 and go up from there.

[Withnail]

I would sell the Millennia and get the Earthworks ZDT 1022 instead.

Seriously!

/Richard

[Adebar]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

I guess millennia would be the "token" answer, but I have never liked those amps. You see that chain in a lot of classical-oriented studios, though..(maybe part of the reason I dont like new classical recordings either?? )

They sound really "hospital lights" to me...not euphonic at all. There are better/more pleasing choices, in my opinion.
.

I wouldn´t go that far with the critics to Millennia. But I agree, since I use Forssell instead of Millennia I still have a neutral preamp with a little more rich (and more realistic) highs and a real good deep end. Now my recordings seems to represent the music better than before.

The Millennia is a very relyable workhorse for me but recording with the Forssell reminds me on the reason why I love doing recordings.

[Brandt]

Originally Posted by Adebar

I wouldn´t go that far with the critics to Millennia. But I agree, since I use Forssell instead of Millennia I still have a neutral preamp with a little more rich (and more realistic) highs and a real good deep end. Now my recordings seems to represent the music better than before.

The Millennia is a very relyable workhorse for me but recording with the Forssell reminds me on the reason why I love doing recordings.

I use both as well. If I'm capturing a source without anything else desired in the path, I normally go to the Forssell first just for the same reasons as Adebar. If I want to tweak a little with EQ or compression, I like using Origins. David is very right about the Millennia EQ. It definitely stays out of the way. There must be others that do this too, but this the only EQ I've used that I don't "hear".

[BrianHanke]

Originally Posted by iratinhk

-At the moment only AKG414s, KM184s, TLM103, and U87s. I'm looking into some DPAs and Schoeps.

I highly recommend picking up a pair of Neumann KM131 omnis. If you're doing classical I guarantee you'll get a lot of use out of them. They give an extraordinarily clear and deep sound, and they also impart a little of that classic Neumann color that we're all so used to hearing in recordings. They're also priced better than comparable offerings from Schoeps and DPA.

[Loki]

Mics:

DPA/Schoeps mics (cards/wide cards/omni) (Tree (4006 with acoustic balls)/ORTF/XY/Spots)
Sennheiser MKH800 (Spots/Solo/Piano)
Cole 4038/Royer 121(Solo/Section Strings/Brass!/Also for M/S recording)
Neumann 87 (Celli/Bass)
AKG 414 (versatility)

Mic Pre:
Gordon Model 5 or GML 8304 for solid state
Forsell Fetcode (tube)
don't particular find the Grace or Millenia mic pres that great but they do well in this field
Neve 1084 Reissues for a classic Orch mic setup for Tree/Flanks using mic pres above.

EQ:
GML 8200
Manley Massive Passive

Dynamics:
Manley VariMu
GML 8900
Neve 33609JD (classic sound)

Reverb (though both are digital):
Briscati M7
Lex PCM96

The EQ/Dynamics can be for surgical fixes/slight compression (GML) or finalizing (Manley/Neve). There are more options for the above, but to keep with "new" and priced reasonably those are some good recommendations.

[James Meeker]

If I were recording classical this is what I'd get:

DPA 130v small diaphragms
Neumann M50's
Royer SF-12
Maybe be totally stupid and get a Josepson 700 stereo version
Martech MSS10 preamps
DW Fearn VT2 for tube fun
Prism AD

Would be a sick rig for classical recording.