ideal analog gear for classical

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by Loki

Mics:

DPA/Schoeps mics (cards/wide cards/omni) (Tree (4006 with acoustic balls)/ORTF/XY/Spots)
Sennheiser MKH800 (Spots/Solo/Piano)
Cole 4038/Royer 121(Solo/Section Strings/Brass!/Also for M/S recording)
Neumann 87 (Celli/Bass)
AKG 414 (versatility)

Mic Pre:
Gordon Model 5 or GML 8304 for solid state
Forsell Fetcode (tube)
don't particular find the Grace or Millenia mic pres that great but they do well in this field
Neve 1084 Reissues for a classic Orch mic setup for Tree/Flanks using mic pres above.

EQ:
GML 8200
Manley Massive Passive

Dynamics:
Manley VariMu
GML 8900
Neve 33609JD (classic sound)

Reverb (though both are digital):
Briscati M7
Lex PCM96

The EQ/Dynamics can be for surgical fixes/slight compression (GML) or finalizing (Manley/Neve). There are more options for the above, but to keep with "new" and priced reasonably those are some good recommendations.

Hi Loki,

I don't get the finalizing intentions by using a Neve 33609JD.
I will say 1 out of 10 classical recording engineers and balancing engineers will use compression or limiting, even less. They usually do lots of editing and fader moves, but very few use any type of compression. Usually if they use a compression device is for its color, and chances are it'll be a very transparent compressor.

Surgical fixes are done with mic positioning before hitting the record button.

They usually try to stay very clean. I see NEVE mostly in scoring sessions.
You are right on Millennia and Grace preamps.


Cheers,
Pupo

[Loki]

Originally Posted by jpupo74

Hi Loki,

I don't get the finalizing intentions by using a Neve 33609JD.
I will say 1 out of 10 classical recording engineers and balancing engineers will use compression or limiting, even less. They usually do lots of editing and fader moves, but very few use any type of compression. Usually if they use a compression device is for its color, and chances are it'll be a very transparent compressor.

Yes, very rarely are compressors used but what I mean by finalizing is if it isn't going to a mastering engineer and dynamics need a little compression (say taking 20db to 18db.) The Neve because of some of the older classic recording sound that can somewhat mimic tape compression (and string tape compression was a great sound in classical, imo.) The other use for a compressor (multiband -- forgot to mention the Maselec MLA-3) is to cleanup noise issues (hiss especially.) All impressions of what is wanted here isn't actually true remote location recording but studio classical recording from the original post. That would be closer to a scoring stage technique. The GML 8900 is also for very transparent (light) compression to raise gain on material with, say, high dynamic percussion peaks (cymbal crashes, etc.)

Originally Posted by jpupo74

Surgical fixes are done with mic positioning before hitting the record button.

That's all well and ideal, but sometimes "surgical fixes" have to be done post-recording (otherwise it wouldn't be "fixes" -- it'd be proper setup.) EQing out problem freq from the room or if needed to blend in section spots effectively. Once again, transparent eq would be my first recommendations though EQing could be useful when doing 5.1 fold downs to stereo unless planning to do all brand new mixes (OP is working in 5.1 from first post)

This is just outboard hardware I'd want for mixing to make things better. I wouldn't strap any of that on to the master bus by default... only when needed. (And I agree, it is mostly about edits and fader rides but the OP wanted analogue gear recommendations for this type of work and it leans toward mastering gear and scoring gear when coming to studio classical)

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by Loki

Yes, very rarely are compressors used but what I mean by finalizing is if it isn't going to a mastering engineer and dynamics need a little compression (say taking 20db to 18db.) The Neve because of some of the older classic recording sound that can somewhat mimic tape compression (and string tape compression was a great sound in classical, imo.) The other use for a compressor (multiband -- forgot to mention the Maselec MLA-3) is to cleanup noise issues (hiss especially.) All impressions of what is wanted here isn't actually true remote location recording but studio classical recording from the original post. That would be closer to a scoring stage technique. The GML 8900 is also for very transparent (light) compression to raise gain on material with, say, high dynamic percussion peaks (cymbal crashes, etc.)


That's all well and ideal, but sometimes "surgical fixes" have to be done post-recording (otherwise it wouldn't be "fixes" -- it'd be proper setup.) EQing out problem freq from the room or if needed to blend in section spots effectively. Once again, transparent eq would be my first recommendations though EQing could be useful when doing 5.1 fold downs to stereo unless planning to do all brand new mixes (OP is working in 5.1 from first post)

This is just outboard hardware I'd want for mixing to make things better. I wouldn't strap any of that on to the master bus by default... only when needed. (And I agree, it is mostly about edits and fader rides but the OP wanted analogue gear recommendations for this type of work and it leans toward mastering gear and scoring gear when coming to studio classical)

Hi Loki,
Fair enough but I really don't see how the Maselec will clean noise and hiss?
What hiss are you talking about?

Fold down mixes have been proven not to work as good as mixing for stereo and surround, and this can definitely be heard on classical.

I hope I understood you wrong, but taking 18 to 20dB's of reducton in classical music is just completely insane!
This is just not right.

I have restored some old recordings from original tapes, and believe me, no Neve, GML or Massive Passive was used, just a great tape machine, excelent musicians and good producers and engineers.

As always, YMMV.

Cheers,
Pupo

[Musician]

Guys guys guys!....

Why make it so difficult ?

Of course to the OP: you have to get on the Mac side

But the METRIC HALO ULN8 will do ALL you want:
- hi quality pres
- 192khz ideal for classical recordings
- mixerless but with full mobile control
- onboard powerful processing
- etc etc

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by iratinhk

Dear gurus,

I'm putting together my ever first studio at our music school. I intend it as a high-end recording/mixing environment for 5.0 surround classical. So far I have a PTHD rig with Prism A/D/A, Millennia HV-3D pres, and am planning on the Grace M906 controller. From my limited experience, and from what I've read, I think I am better off with a mixer-less studio, high quality pug-ins, but with high quality outboard analog gear. I could easily afford an SSL Matrix, but I'm not sure what I would actually 'mix' on it (other than 5 channels of signal with 5 channels of reverb, and for the money I could get a TC 6000, though digital).

So my question is, what high-end outboard analog gear would be ideal for classical music? Would merely running 5 channels through an SSL Matrix widen/improve my sound-field? How about running them through the input modules of an X-Rack? I generally use a touch of EQ here and there and sometimes a little compression.


Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

If you want a wider sound, use less gear, not more... the more processing one does, the smaller the mix sounds.. weird, eh? and compression? not used much.

Euphonic=Big, Lush-- not Millennia Media

[James Meeker]

Personally, I think the hallmark of classical recording is to use a great sounding chain, and accomplish as much as you can with mic placement. EQ, compression, fake reverb, and other production tricks that are the stock-in-trade for pop/rock production are pretty much out the window.

You pretty much have to focus on capturing the moment, capturing the space, and not letting "production" get in the way. It's a very pure path, very disciplined... completely the opposite of what most of us here on GS do for a living. Dynamics are key--you're not going to be crushing stuff with limiters to get "the sound"--the sound is what is coming off the stage. Period.

Other than automation and getting the mix balance right, I can't imagine what else you'd do after the fact.

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Personally, I think the hallmark of classical recording is to use a great sounding chain, and accomplish as much as you can with mic placement. EQ, compression, fake reverb, and other production tricks that are the stock-in-trade for pop/rock production are pretty much out the window.

You pretty much have to focus on capturing the moment, capturing the space, and not letting "production" get in the way. It's a very pure path, very disciplined... completely the opposite of what most of us here on GS do for a living. Dynamics are key--you're not going to be crushing stuff with limiters to get "the sound"--the sound is what is coming off the stage. Period.

Other than automation and getting the mix balance right, I can't imagine what else you'd do after the fact.

I agree with you.
The only thing I will add is that those "fake reverbs" are sometimes needed since not every hall is nice and sometimes you cannot choose the hall. Using widecardioids to pickup less "room" and adding a bit of fake reverb can be better than using omnis and no reverb. Ya know...

Cheers,
Pupo

[Loki]

Originally Posted by jpupo74

Hi Loki,
I hope I understood you wrong, but taking 18 to 20dB's of reducton in classical music is just completely insane!

Yup... understood me wrong

It was a 2db reduction on something with 20db dynamic range to 18 dynamic range

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by Loki

Yup... understood me wrong

It was a 2db reduction on something with 20db dynamic range to 18 dynamic range

[tamasdragon]

Isn't clean pres are much more used than colored in classical music? I mean even in scoring. Tons of millenia, grace, sometimes dav,buzz,cranesong,gml...
I mean a 1073 can be easily too agressive sounding. (not that color is bad, but get the idea)
I'm not a big guy, but I heard big engineers who thinks that "capture it clean, and if the performance is stellar, you won. If you want, color it later, if needed."
TD

[just.sounds]

Don't forget to include!:

Restauration: algorithmix renovator is a high quality plugin to remove coughs ticks bangs etc. etc.

24 channels of good(great) remote controllable preamps.
24 channels of good(great) AD conversion preferably with DSD option so students can hear the difference.
Good cabling don't cheap on this.

A fader controller. The tascam 24 channel Hui is nice enough.

Calibrated!! monitor control. (great room great speakers also but that is obvious)
surround metering (RTW)

Stellar reverb!!!!!!! This the most important mixing tool. Second comes eq.

And maybe an analog summing buss and outboard eq's to let students experiment with the sound of analog.

But believe me restauration, crossfading and high quality signal paths are of more importance that eq and compression for classical.