Mono Micing a Symphony Concert

[chris319]

In a week and a half I will be recording a youth symphony orchestra as some of you may be aware. I have determined that it will be a monaural recording so I don't have to deal with stereo issues and the orchestra people are OK with this. It will be a live performance in an auditorium before an audience of about 300 people.

Has anyone ever tried this, borrowing a trick from the early days of sound motion pictures? Take a bidirectional (figure 8) mic and place it slightly behind and above the conductor. Angle the mic so that one of the nulls of the figure 8 pattern is pointing out over the audience, thus putting the audience in a dead spot in the pattern. The mic would be about 20 - 30 degrees above the horizontal, pointing in the direction of the orchestra. I figure this will cancel both audience and auditorum-acoustic noise (reverberation).

In the early days of sound motion pictures they used to do this, but instead of a live audience they would point the null at the motion picture camera and its attendant noise.

Thoughts?

[RobAnderson]

My curiosity gets the better of me: what do you mean by stereo issues?

[chris319]

In monaural I can place a mic anywhere and not have to worry about the "other" channel; I don't have to stick to any of the established stereo micing techniques.

[HookedOnHardware]

Why not use M-S with two figure of 8 mics. ? No need to worry about the stereo image there. Just angle one mic like you described and place the other in a normal S configuration.

If you don't like the S channel or it's giving you problems. Just don't use it

[Roland]

Originally Posted by chris319

In monaural I can place a mic anywhere and not have to worry about the "other" channel; I don't have to stick to any of the established stereo micing techniques.

Wow, I've been banging on about this for years, but nobody else believes it. There are some serious advantages to recording in mono, for start you only need one mic, one microphone lead, setup and clearance is so quick. Nowadayws with people listening to mp3's all the time there is such a drop in quality, by having a mono recording all the available data rate is made available for just that track, twice the quality!

You are right, using a fig of 8 mic would give you the chance of pretty much eliminating all the audience noise. I would try to attach a pencil with some tape at right angles to the capsule to try and align the null as accurately as possible to the audience to get the maximum rejection. As you pointed out, being mono you could place the mic almost anywhere you like as you don't have to consider things such as imaging.

I look forward to hearing a copy when you have finished. But for now, please have a listen to one of my best mono recordings.

Regards



Roland

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by chris319

...a monaural recording so I don't have to deal with stereo issues and the orchestra people are OK with this....

Maybe I'm dense as a fencepost this morning, but this sounds like an unusual logic, and getting the orchestra people "okay" with an unusual idea seems like a far cry from getting the orchestra people excited about it and telling all their friends.

I also am not sure what "stereo issues" means... if it means weird phasey stuff, you can hard pan every set of stereo mics, rather than trying to 'realistically' pan them in relation to where they were placed, and you won't have any of those issues.

In fact you could pan every mic wherever it was dead center and you'd still have a mono recording but maybe with a tad more detail than one lone "conductor cam" mic?

[Thomas W. Bethe]

To the original poster. Aren't you going back in time? I did my first mono recordings in our church in 1957 using an Ampex 601 mono tape machine and an Altec microphone.

If you use a coincident stereo microphone set up you should have no phase problems. If you are having problems then isn't it your job a recording engineer to find out what the problems are and fix them. Going back to mono recording IMHO is going back to the stone age of recording. Basically learn your craft or don't do it. Getting the orchestra to OK this is fine but this is not the way to go IMO in this day and age.


FWIW and YMMV

[rubycakes]

Um,

Aren't there 2 nulls in a figure 8? While eliminating the audience on one side aren't you eliminating the center of the orchestra with the other?

[HookedOnHardware]

Originally Posted by rubycakes

Um,

Aren't there 2 nulls in a figure 8? While eliminating the audience on one side aren't you eliminating the center of the orchestra with the other?

I'm pretty sure he meant putting the mic up high, angling it down. This would result in the null being at the bottom.
Unless all you want to do is record people walking in through the side entrance....

[mohthom]

I prefer to think of it as a single null - it's just doughnut shaped.

To the OP; by trying to pre-empt problems that don't exist, I think you're painting yourself into a corner. Stereo issues? Have you ever had significant stereo issues when using a little common sense and the basic rules of thumb used by all engineers? Audience noise? Why lie about the fact that it's a live performance? Record the rehearsal in case of any awful noise etc., but with cardioid microphones pointing at the orchestra (and not at the audience) or omni microphones . . . well, not pointing at anything . . . - the amount of noise generated by a symphony orchestra is greater (by a long way) than the noise generated by an audience.

Why mono? We aren't in the early days of film recording any more! I really don't follow your logic;

In monaural I can place a mic anywhere and not have to worry about the "other" channel; I don't have to stick to any of the established stereo micing techniques.

Stereo bar.

There's two possible ends to this scenario;

• The final product is for release/sale after the concert. Mono would not suffice.
• The final product is for archive. A blank CD handed over at the end would probably suffice, because no-one listens to archive recordings. A mono recording would serve no other purpose.

[chris319]

Stereo is off the table.

It's a youth symphony. The audience for the recording will be a small subset of the parents of the players at most. I want to make the orchestra sound good without having to worry about all of the attendant issues relating to stereo such as imaging, phasing, etc. I won't even have a chance to see the auditorium until the day of to judge the acoustics, where I can physically place mics, where I can set up, etc. On the day of the concert I will have 45 minutes to make those evaluations, plus a three-hour rehearsal. Stereo would be a luxury compared to having a really good monaural recording.

[Antonio_4346]

Originally Posted by chris319

Stereo is off the table.
On the day of the concert I will have 45 minutes to make those evaluations, plus a three-hour rehearsal.

Welcome to the industry. More crucial decisions have been made and implemented with much less time available thousands of times before, yielding great results. I agree with the above posters. And so what if it's an amateur orchestra? You shouldn't treat a novice band in a studio any differently than a big name act who's already been established, so why would live sound reinforcement/recording be any different?

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by chris319

Stereo is off the table.

It's a youth symphony. The audience for the recording will be a small subset of the parents of the players at most. I want to make the orchestra sound good without having to worry about all of the attendant issues relating to stereo such as imaging, phasing, etc. I won't even have a chance to see the auditorium until the day of to judge the acoustics, where I can physically place mics, where I can set up, etc. On the day of the concert I will have 45 minutes to make those evaluations, plus a three-hour rehearsal. Stereo would be a luxury compared to having a really good monaural recording.

Hmmm ... and an easily attained "luxury" at that!

Stereo is a "luxury"? Maybe in 1950! I'm with Thom on this .... seems like the stone age! And I know the orchestra said they are "fine" with it, but somehow I have the feeling that they WON'T be fine with it once they hear it. I'd be thinking about future opprotunities with the group by dumping the mono idea.

Seriously, how much more trouble is it to set up a coincident pair of cards and get a decent stereo recording? And 45 minutes + a 3 hour rehearsal??? If you can't get a decent simple 2-channel recording with that as your prep time on site, then something is seriously amiss. IMO even a marginal stereo recording will far outdo a "good" monorual recording, especially with respect to how people's ears are tuned in these days.

Just my 0.02. Cheers!

[RobAnderson]

45 minutes is plenty of time to set up two microphones.

I am not sure why you consider stereo a "luxury." If anything, it is an "arse saver." Whatever balance issues you have in stereo, you would have with a single mono mic as well. The biggest difference is that stereo would actually give you more options to correct this. A single monaural pickup cannot be placed very far from the orchestra without turning into muck. A stereo recording is generally much more forgiving, since these reflections that cancel at the diaphragm of a single mic will be reproduced in stereo as hall reflections. This also means that if you are having balance issues, you can move the mic stand farther back into the room with a stereophonic pickup than with a monaural one, distance giving you a better balance perhaps.

If you are rushed for setup and no soundcheck is possible, I would say use ORTF. It is just as easy to adjust the position of two mic's mounted on a single stand with a T-Bar as it is to adjust one. Even if you don't get the "ideal" perspective, if you keep the ensemble within +/- 45-degrees of the perspective of the mic's and put them about 10 feet up, you should get a decent sounding recording - maybe not amazing, but decent.

[tsvisser]

I second the M-S method mentioned earlier. It is exactly the mic placement pattern that you mentioned yourself, which is a great idea, but using a second mic, preferably of the same type, to use as the -S component. The beauty of this is that it is a point source array, so effectively 1 mic to place, and at the end of the day, you can mix to mono as you originally intended, or mix it stereo. If the -S has a lot of noise pollution, you can mix in as much or as little of it as you wish, so there are no downsides or safety concerns.

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

45 minutes is plenty of time to set up two microphones.

I am not sure why you consider stereo a "luxury." If anything, it is an "arse saver." Whatever balance issues you have in stereo, you would have with a single mono mic as well. The biggest difference is that stereo would actually give you more options to correct this. A single monaural pickup cannot be placed very far from the orchestra without turning into muck. A stereo recording is generally much more forgiving, since these reflections that cancel at the diaphragm of a single mic will be reproduced in stereo as hall reflections. This also means that if you are having balance issues, you can move the mic stand farther back into the room with a stereophonic pickup than with a monaural one, distance giving you a better balance perhaps.

If you are rushed for setup and no soundcheck is possible, I would say use ORTF. It is just as easy to adjust the position of two mic's mounted on a single stand with a T-Bar as it is to adjust one. Even if you don't get the "ideal" perspective, if you keep the ensemble within +/- 45-degrees of the perspective of the mic's and put them about 10 feet up, you should get a decent sounding recording - maybe not amazing, but decent.

Everyone is different, but when I'm rushed for time, I go for M-S as I know it is safe. I would tend to reserve ORTF for halls that I know sound really good or when I have more time to set up, but that is just me.

[chris319]

45 minutes is plenty of time to set up two microphones.

I'll have more to do than setting up mics. I'll have to scope out the hall, find the AC, run cables, set up the mixer and recorder, convince the school's A-V guy that we should use a KSM109 for the spot mic instead of his E-V 664 or whatever, that kind of thing.

I reevaluated the Shure KSM109 this morning and may use it as the main mic, which leaves me a multi-pattern AT2050 which is on the way, which I could use as a bidirectional "S" mic if I don't use it as the main mic. We'll see. If I were to do stereo, M-S would be the only way to go for me.

Remember these? Electro-Voice Model 664

[RobAnderson]

LOL

I actually own one of those. Don't have the cable though... Just a conversation piece I rescued from a renovation.

This whole scenario sounds kind of strange - maybe there is more of a back story to this? Are you recording/splitting this spot mic? Otherwise, why does it matter?

I hate to say this, but 45 minutes really is ample time for setting up a 2-mic recording - even in an unfamiliar venue - unless you have to hang the mic's.

As for the array, I can only say that, in my own experience, rigging MS with a mixed pair of mic's is more complicated and unpredictable than a simple ORTF-ish array.

Do you have 2 KSM109's?

[chris319]

Before I volunteered my recording services, they had done concerts at this venue for the past six years which were not recorded. I'm told the orchestra was not amplified but violin soloists used a "solo" mic which went to house P.A. I'm going to split the solo mic and send one feed to myself and the other to house P.A. The conductor will also use this mic to speak to the audience. There will also be a "presenter" located stage left which they tell me they do not want to record, and they don't want to mic the audience. They only want to record the orchestra and the soloists.

I'm told this is an elementary school auditorium and there will be some kind of A-V guy there. I anticipate that some of those 45 minutes may be spent haggling with the local yokel about using a better mic as the solo mic, reminding him not to amplify the orchestra (they have a series of overhead hanging mics on stage), that kind of thing. I don't know if he even knows what phantom power is. I'm told last year he didn't even show up.

What appeals to me about M-S is that if all else fails, you still have a clean mono recording.

Speaking of the 664, I happen to have a connector which I think will fit it; if you or anyone else wants it I can send it to you. It came with an ebay purchase of another vintage E-V mic (not a 664).

Here is the orchestra's web site: Musique Sur La Mer Youth Symphony Orchestra

[mohthom]

I'll have to scope out the hall, find the AC, run cables, set up the mixer and recorder, convince the school's A-V guy that we should use a KSM109 for the spot mic instead of his E-V 664 or whatever, that kind of thing.

Apart from physically place the microphone stand upon which microphones could already be set and positioned (in the car if needs be) and run two cables to the recording booth, what else needs to be done before the orchestra starts playing? You can bugger about with setting up mixers/recorders/arguments when the ensemble is rehearsing can't you? And if you can't point two microphones in an array in the right direction (re: stereo image, phasing [??!]) then please, for the sake of the gig, call the musical director and tell him exactly that.

And why not scope out the hall . . . BEFORE the day of the gig? Every venue I've recorded in has accommodated me at some level to this end. They have NO interest in making things work out badly for you. Also, why not speak to the tech at this point and have your 'haggling' session before the main event?

It's probably not a good idea to go into such an event thinking of the venue staff as 'local yokels.' The first lesson I learned is that it pays to be on the better side of support staff (FOH, techs, porters) because they have the ability to get things that you need. Or to slam/lock doors in your face. Maybe he doesn't know what phantom power is and doesn't want to change the setup he's tested and knows works, but he's got the job so you just have to deal with it.

I said it above, but you've painted yourself into a hell of a corner.

[RobAnderson]

That's really awesome of you to offer. If you really are getting rid of that connector let me know - it might be fun to actually plug this mic in and make it work again.

If you are more comfortable with M/S, then by all means go with it. I'm just more of a "spaciousness" sort of guy I guess, though I still feel that it might be easier to setup ORTF if you are in a hurry.

A couple of pertinent questions come to mind here:
Are you multi-tracking this concert or mixing live? Do you have to record the rehearsal or is it mostly a sound check? Do you have to hang the mic's or can you use a stand? Do you know the name of the person who you will be working with?

For me orchestral recording is all about the mains - if you get that right, you often don't really need the solo spot (though it is nice to have if you have the luxury of mixing down later). You mentioned a mixer some posts back, so I am guessing you are going live to 2-track. Given all that, my focus would be on getting the rig up and getting the mains happening. Treat the local A/V guy with as much kindness and respect as you can muster - he may not be as bad as you think, but more importantly he can also make your life miserable if you get off on the wrong foot. Regardless of what you really think of the guy, a smile on your face and a little sugar in your mouth will help negotiations to run more quickly and smoothly.

Also consider that his lower-quality dynamic mic may be less prone to feeding back in a school PA system than a decent condenser. No matter how good the mic sounds, feedback will ruin the recording on every level. Discreetly double mic'ing is another option.

If it is possible, make every effort to get in contact with the person that you will be dealing with on the gig and work out as many of these details as you can before the fact - it will make for an easier time and a happier day. You can hit the ground running as soon as you are in the door.

If you don't really have to record the rehearsal (not that you shouldn't anyway if you have the space), then you have the luxury of a three hour sound check. Man, what I would give for that!

[chris319]

You can bugger about with setting up mixers/recorders/arguments when the ensemble is rehearsing can't you?

NO!!! I'm not going to disturb the rehearsal scurrying around setting up, no way. The conductor needs to hear the orchestra (I've never heard a symphony orchestra called an "ensemble" before) and interact with her musicians without disturbance from me. I enter the hall at 8:00 am and the musicians arrive at 8:45 am and I have to be ready to go on the dot.

And why not scope out the hall . . . BEFORE the day of the gig?

Do you think I haven't thought of this? Do you think I haven't tried? Do you think I'm unaware of the benefit of doing so? It's not feasible, end of story.

It's probably not a good idea to go into such an event thinking of the venue staff as 'local yokels.' The first lesson I learned is that it pays to be on the better side of support staff (FOH, techs, porters) because they have the ability to get things that you need. Or to slam/lock doors in your face.

If he even shows up this year, I expect to be dealing with someone who is neither knowledgeable nor experienced (this is an elementary school, not Disney Concert Hall). This is a situation I've dealt with many times in the past. If I approach him with respect I'll get cooperation. He doesn't have to know my a priori expectations and I won't let them on. If he does know his stuff so much the better.

I said it above, but you've painted yourself into a hell of a corner.

I've got to play the hand I'm dealt. If it crashes and burns because I'm in the corner you think I've painted myself into, I'll be sure to come back and tell you how right you were.

[chris319]

That's really awesome of you to offer. If you really are getting rid of that connector let me know - it might be fun to actually plug this mic in and make it work again.

You can send me your email address and I'll send it to you. Right now it is literally sitting around collecting dust. My brother has a 664 on a desk stand on the mantle of his fireplace. It still has the name of our high school etched into the stud

Are you multi-tracking this concert or mixing live?

Mixing live to two channels. I don't own a multi-track recorder. It will be recorded on a Fostex FR2-LE.

Do you have to record the rehearsal or is it mostly a sound check?

From my standpoint it will be a sound check. She'll be stopping and starting them so I don't have to record it unless she asks me to.

Do you have to hang the mic's or can you use a stand?

I saw the conductor last weekend. The only place she doesn't want a mic is in front of her. She's OK with putting a boom stand off the lip of the stage in the "orchestra pit" and raising it straight up over her head. She doesn't mind a 5/8" black metal rod between her and the audience.

Do you know the name of the person who you will be working with?

The A-V guy at the venue? No. We don't even know if he'll show up. He didn't last year.

The solo spot is something which will have to be worked out in rehearsal.

Also consider that his lower-quality dynamic mic may be less prone to feeding back in a school PA system than a decent condenser.

I was being facetious when I brought up the E-V 664. I really don't know what they have. The feedback issue would be a good argument for double micing.

I'm beginning to see the light WRT stereo. In viewing one of the videos on their web site, due to the orchestra being as wide as it is, I can see that using a single cardiod immediately behind the conductor means I would lose some of the far left and right, being something like 5 dB down at 90 degrees. Even doing MS I might not get such a great "M" channel unless I used an omni, which would likely pick up too much of the hall. So maybe an ORTF pair is the better option.

[Audiop]

Mono is stoneage and even though it can pass as ok for speaker listening it's a pain to listen to mono in head/earphones.

The extra time for a second stereo mic would be a couple of minutes and I would not dream about not going stereo.

I recorded a big choir with ensemble a while ago and had 45 minutes to hang two main pairs above the stage, place two flankers on stands at both sides of the stage and two room mic's in the back of the hall, draw the cables into the control room and fire things up and set levels.

Since there were no time really for soundcheck or adjusting mic's I opted for a pair of omnis as well as a pair of cards as main mic's so I could decide in post what to use.

I'm beginning to see the light WRT stereo. In viewing one of the videos on their web site, due to the orchestra being as wide as it is, I can see that using a single cardiod immediately behind the conductor means I would lose some of the far left and right, being something like 5 dB down at 90 degrees. Even doing MS I might not get such a great "M" channel unless I used an omni, which would likely pick up too much of the hall. So maybe an ORTF pair is the better option.

The card is not only x-amounts of dB down at an angle but also the upper range is rolled off making off axis darker. Also I assume that the distance will be different to the center of the orchestra and the flanks which will make it even more unbalanced.


/Peter

[ghellquist]

Originally Posted by chris319

Even doing MS I might not get such a great "M" channel unless I used an omni, which would likely pick up too much of the hall.

Hi. Seems like we are coming from some different starting points to this recording.
I do recordings of symphony orchestras in halls with audiences all the time. In my experience the things you mention as problems are not that, they are part of the performance.

Generally the audience is not a problem. Sure, they will cough and rustle their papers and sometimes small kids will start "singing along". But this is all part of the performance. The trouble is that the only way I know of to isolate this is to spot mic just about every instrument.

And too much hall? Well, the hall is definitely part of the performance as well. Unless we are talking recording in a totally horrid place, the room is part of the recording. Recording a live performance is not a studio event.

My suggestion is the same as given by other people and also the same setup I have used time after time - one of the standard stereo setups. Generally my "quick setup" version is an ORTF setup a little bit behind the conductor. Remember that the conductor will balance the orchestra to make it sound good at his/her position. This is one of the reasons behing how the orchestra is seated.

Incidently ORTF and an MS Setup with a center cardioid creates very similar sounds.

Well, my 50 cents. To me it seems you are focusing on non-issues. I can only guess that this is because you are inexperienced in doing this kind of recordings. But you have got quite a bit of advice here from people with experience. Your choice of course to follow it or not.

// Gunnar Hellquist

[chris319]

I'm convinced! The recording will be ORTF stereo.

"Too much hall" means room reverberation as well as audience noise. I know I can't eliminate it but I would like to minimize it.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by chris319

...
In the early days of sound motion pictures they used to do this, but instead of a live audience they would point the null at the motion picture camera and its attendant noise.

Thoughts?

Much has already been said about this. Let me put it this way:
Recording in mono with one mircophone is the best education in microphone placement, balancing issues before the microphone, placement of instruments relative to the microphone, sonic polar pattern characteristics, bleed from other sources etc.

If I were to create the curriculum for a serious acoustical music engineering program, my students would not be allowed to use more then one mic only for the first two years.

[chris319]

If I were to create the curriculum for a serious acoustical music engineering program, my students would not be allowed to use more then one mic only for the first two years.

OK professor, if your students had to mic an orchestra with one mic, how would they do it without losing the outer reaches of players? Two possibilities come to my mind: an omni and a PZM. A third would be to hang a cardioid way up high, pointing straight down.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by chris319

I'm convinced! The recording will be ORTF stereo.

"Too much hall" means room reverberation as well as audience noise. I know I can't eliminate it but I would like to minimize it.

Congratulations .... this is definitely a smart move! And, you'll have plenty of time to experiment with placement, or even trying out a different array (e.g. XY, Stereo180, etc)

Regarding reverb, you don't know the hall yet .... some halls I've been in have left me WANTING for some reverb. So, you never know. And what Gunnar says is true: the hall is an essential ingredient to the sound picture. If it's decent, use it.

[RobAnderson]

If I had to do a mono recording of orchestra, my first instinct would be to try an omni right behind and slightly over the conductor's head.

I forget which label it was, but back in the '40's or '50's I think there was a classical label that used only one U47 to make their orchestra recordings. I don't know if they used the omni or cardioid setting, but my bet would be on omni.

Might be a fun experiment actually: set up an ORTF array and then clamp a single omni (diffuse field equalised like KM130 or CMC63) to the stand and see which you like better.

I'd bet that the ORTF wins the day.