Brainstorming: small high-quality mixer for simultaneous live sound / recording.

[NorseHorse]

Recently I've done several live shows recording a cappella groups while also running live sound. I run the snake to a splitter and run one set to a Behringer XENYX mixer mixing the FOH and the other through a Grace 801 to two R-44s for recording.

All the gear is cumbersome to transport (relatively) and I have to have someone else take care of patching the snakes while I'm setting up mics / cables / speakers, etc. I anticipate getting proportionally more gigs like this come fall, and I'm brainstorming ways to make my life easier/sluttier.

For those of you who aren't familiar with collegiate a cappella, the set-ups I most often see range from [1 solo mic, 2 group mics] to [2 solo mics, 4 group mics, 1 percussion mic, 1 bass mic]. I wouldn't really plan on going beyond this. So... I'm looking for a small mixer that could help me get rid of the splitter and extra rack of pres. I do a lot of classical recordings, so if this mixer could double as a go-to for radio-simulcast gigs AND triple as a summing unit, that would be great.

My requirements/range:

- Great Mic Preamps w/ 48v. (Great = must be suitable for classical.)
- LINE Ins too.
- Direct Outs. (Though I never really use inserts, so perhaps I should consider using those as DOs? Advantages/disadvantages?)
- At least 1 AUX send.
- At least three band EQ.
- No less than eight channels. No more than sixteen. (Eightish mic preamps is ideal. Two more stereo line-only channels might be handy though.)
- Relatively small size. Remote recording is my main thing, so I'm not looking for a large, beast of a mixer. The smaller, the better.

Are there any mixers on the market that seem well suited to my specific purposes? I'm not concerned about brand name.
I'm also considering custom-build options. Have any recommendations? It might be more fun...

Thanks in advance.

[memphisindie]

A&H Mixwizard 16.
I think that has it all.

[davet]

I bought a used Ashly MX508 that I like. Very well built box, sounds great to me, has all the features you're looking for. Found mine on EBay for $500.00 which was a true bargain. There are optional isolation transformers available from the vendor for the mic pres as well.

DaveT

[MidasHatesGold]

+1 for a&h mix wizzard

[Flogger59]

There is also the apb-dynasonics ProRack FOH.
Analog Audio Consoles - APB-DynaSonics.com

[Trancetones]

Soundcraft MFX12

[NorseHorse]

Thanks guys. Anyone know any custom mixer makers?

[netrom]

Soundcraft Spirit M8 Mixer

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Thanks guys. Anyone know any custom mixer makers?

Wendt mixers sound amazing.

Any custom job is going to be really expensive.

[NorseHorse]

Ooo. Switchable Pre/Post direct out on the M8. Nice.

Custom mixers might be expensive, but I'm just at the brainstorming / dreaming phase right now. All suggestions welcome!

[gareth.h.rees]

Mackie Onyx 1620?

8 Preamps
Direct outs on D-Sub
Inserts
4 Aux send
4 Stereo returns
Fairly decent EQ section
Various master outputs

Nice touches:
Lamp socket
Talkback section
Firewire option

[jhg]

But something like the ATI 8MX2 may work, little skimpy on some of the requests, but sure is portable, and sounds pretty good.

[Enginearing]

Originally Posted by Flogger59

There is also the apb-dynasonics ProRack FOH.
Analog Audio Consoles - APB-DynaSonics.com

excellent choice .thumbsupthumbsup

The monitor version may also be worth a look as it has ground liftable passive split XLR out instead of the direct outs on each channel...

[Banjo]

Hi Norsehorse, totally sideways, but have you thought of a Metric Halo 2882 approach and mix for live and record in the same box at the same time. 8 in and 8 out, a very flexable and configerable mixer plus very usable eq and compression. All in 1U, connect 8 channels of ADAT pres, 2U. Worth investigating

[O.F.F.]

If money is not that much of an obstacle you might like to try Audio Developments
(Design and Manufacturers of Professional Sound Mixers). The BBC seems to be quite happy with them…

AFAIK they do custom jobs and the mixers are modular anyway.

[NorseHorse]

Those "Audio Developements" mixers look interesting. I wonder what the price range is on those.

Re: Metric Halo - I'm staying computer free, plus I need faders to ride (or at least big retro rotary dials!).

[Dog Boots]

You might consider the Yamaha n12. It can be used as a stand alone mixer with built-in recording interface.

[tsvisser]

Haven't laid hands on one, but the new PSC Solice looks interesting. It seems to be an American alternative to Sonosax for the location sound industry, and fills a hole left by the defunct Cooper Sound corporation (also both great mixer manufacturers).

[O.F.F.]

Audio Developments fall into the category 'If you have to ask you can't afford them'.

I like to think of them as battery-powered SSLs (minus automation) ie Penny&Giles all round, fully modular, limiters if and where you want them, built like a tank etc.

The one I got s/h had done 20 years of hard labour in a BBC Northern Ireland mobile radio truck and it still felt better then any brand new A&H. Works faultlessly as well and the one time I needed their customer service (pin out of long deleted special in/out connectors) they were extremely helpful.

Frankly I never dared ask them about their new prices but a while ago they had a s/h six channel one for sale at £2500 I think…
The german agent currently has a special on the little AD114 (4-2) mixer at Euro 2300
so I'd probably double that for what you need but hey what do I know?
Best to contact your local agent, the links are on their site.

[Jim Williams]

My remote rig consists of a Soundcraft Delta 200 16x4x2 console, a modified Yamaha MLA-7 8 channel mic preamp and/or a rack of 4 Audio Upgrades High Speed Mic Preamps to record 24 tracks live to a modified Alesis HD24XR HDR.

The console has 4 band EQ, phase and low cut filters, 6 aux sends, a balanced bussing design with -90 db stereo crosstalk at 10k hz, .0005 % THD+noise, -134 db stereo buss noise, 2 hz to 200k hz bandwidth, no phase shift. The modified mic preamps measure -129.6 db EIN and .0005% THD +noise and .0002% IMD. The gain range is 2 to 70 db, enough for anything and no pads ever needed. It's a ground compensated design so ground loops and other interface problems are absent.

The first 16 channels are run with the HD24XR in the insert loop of the console to allow tracking with/without EQ or filters and still allow for fader mixing/monitoring. The 4 groups provide the extra 8 returns for 24 track monitoring. The 8x4x2 sized console will monitor back 16 returns.

I paid $550 for the console used, it was $7200 new. I use an outboard Power One linear power supply. It all fits nicely in the Jeep and I need 3 bar stools to run it, one for the console, one for the HD24 and one to sit on. A bunch of mics, cables and stands fills it out with a pair of headphones.

Unlike computer based systems, this one is rock solid and reliable. Run it at 96k at 12 tracks for classical recordings. The HD24XR sells new for $1650.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[tsvisser]

Here are some images of that PSC mixer that I recommended earlier...
It seems to me that it should qualify as a decent Cooper Sound, Audio Developments, Studer, Sonosax, etc..
or at least peer if not a more modern replacement mixer for the location sound cart type of guys.

[netrom]

Sexy stuff!

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by Songcatcher

Hi Norsehorse, totally sideways, but have you thought of a Metric Halo 2882 approach and mix for live and record in the same box at the same time. 8 in and 8 out, a very flexable and configerable mixer plus very usable eq and compression. All in 1U, connect 8 channels of ADAT pres, 2U. Worth investigating

Just out of interest, do you (or anyone else reading) do this regularly?

I've been thinking of something similar but not sure I'd want to rely on a computer system (mac or PC) for multitracking AND a stereo mix!

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by gareth.h.rees

Just out of interest, do you (or anyone else reading) do this regularly?

I've been thinking of something similar but not sure I'd want to rely on a computer system (mac or PC) for multitracking AND a stereo mix!

Your concerns are well founded and it would be smart to not do this without a backup. If one really must or are brave enough to forge ahead anyways, the Metric Halo would be my platform of choice. Its hardware/software mixer supports MIDI control from a Mackie Control Universal, for example, making it at least feel like a panel mixer. The new ULN8 just screams out as the one to try for this application.

[NorseHorse]

The PSC Solice looks like it would be perfect, but unfortunately:

Conclusion
The PSC Solice mixer will find a well-deserved, very successful place with film/video production sound pros, because of its balanced combination of extensive routing ability, utility, and moderate price (US$9,495). But what may be the Solice’s most valuable feature is PSC’s proven reputation for standing behind its products.

From: Trew Audio: AudioFlow - The new Solice mixer from PSC

(sigh)

Audio Developers is also pretty high. I'd probably do better putting money down on a car.

[memphisindie]

Coulda told you that, video guys pay a mint for sound because it's more important than video. Aaaaannyway, the Soundcraft sounds great. I'd get it. check into it, may be fully class a stuff in it. Their small stuff is sometimes.

[Steffmo]

I've done maybe 20 remotes at Yale for acapella. I've always used the A and H Mixwiz. Its a 1K mixer.

I recently got a APB Dynasonics ProRack for evaluation, and that sound phenominal, although it is twice the price.

Two good choices.

[tsvisser]

Sorry for getting your hopes up and then dashing them with the price. When you mentioned custom mixer, I though there was the outside chance that you might be looking for something big.

I've been thinking about your problem and have come to the conclusion... if I were in your shoes, having normally used the Grace preamps, I think that I would be a little disappointed to go with a mixer that had inferior pre's. It might be really good, but missing that last little level of performance would really bum me out. Why not just resign yourself to using the Grace in a remote rig? Its only 2RU and combined with a competent mixer, should give you great results. The new SSL X-Desk would qualify for your "slutiness" factor and has routing up the kazoo, but no EQ. Which brings up the question, how much EQ do you need, could you get by with just a couple of channels outboard EQ, either on the 2-buss or dedicated to a couple of solo channels?

This setup would be the bomb if it fits your budget...

[Banjo]

tsvisser,
That's a very clever arrangement, with the recorders in another case and a loom, setup would be quick and easy, well thought out.
Re the Halo thought, I'm trusting enough to use a mac and my Metric Halo- Dav rig for onsite recording, I've done a couple of open mic nights doing the pa and foldbacks from my rig and recording as well. I'm a rank amateur hobbiest, but had no issues at all with the setup, but can understand others' nervousness in trusting this approach. Dry signals went straight to the firewire, eq'd and compressed signals into the mixer and sent to the various outputs. I guess digital desks needed to prove themselves early on too, but are quite widely used now in all levels of audio. Good luck with the search .............. Denis House

[NorseHorse]

TSVISSER,

No apologies needed! This is a brainstorming session. I've also thought about ways to take advantage of the Grace if possible. I'm still sorting out just where / how I need my stuff stored in order to take advantage of everything. I do a lot of remote work and sometimes have two- or three-a-days in different locations, so being able to shuffle things around to divide and conquer is important. Pairing the Graces with a mixer might be the way to go though, but another stand-a-alone option might be better...? I guess time will tell.