Brainstorming: small high-quality mixer for simultaneous live sound / recording.

[fallforward]

Originally Posted by videoteque

Wouldn't it be easier with a Mackie ONYX???

Probably, except for the fact that it would entail me buying a mackie ONYX...

I have some outboard pre's for when I need a few more inputs into the CPU.


if it ain't baroque...

[Corran]

This thread has really gotten me interested in an Onyx. But I don't do live sound enough to justify it. I already have a 32 channel Yamaha and it mostly collects dust.

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

The modular options I explored quickly added up and didn't seem like a very good value.

Have you thought about using a cheaper desk than the SSL?

The A&H Zeds looks pretty cheap and you can completely bypass the first stage of the pre, so it should just be line gain. I havnt used them though, its just a thought.

You could plan to get a nice rack mount eq in time, end up with a mich nicer eq then any desk you would be looking at but and your not having to front the money at once.

[awediohead]

The last couple of months I've compared the Soundcraft M8 to A&H desks - the M8 was IMO unbelievably poor in terms of build: wobbly faders, knobs that felt like they'd come off in your hand. Sound was ok - not great but ok - however I sent it back simply because I couldn't see it lasting for very long in the studio let alone being gigged!

It's a shame because I really liked the design and features of this little desk - they've just cut the quality of the components WAY too much to hit a price point I guess.

By contrast the 4** series A&H desks feel very solid and reliable.

Thanks for the info on the other desks mentioned in this thread - some I hadn't heard of before! I'm going to take another look at the Onyx too - had heard Mackie build quality had fallen off very badly in recent years - will look again!!

cheers

[Obitheincredible]

So how do you like your M12? I love mine solid sound and great eq!

[jabney]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Riddle me this:

Are there any mixers other than the Soundcraft Spirit M8 that have the Direct Out SWITCHABLE between pre and post fader?

Thanks!

The Allen & Heath GL4000 can do that. And the sound quality is quite respectable. I was helping at a recent festival where an APB Spectra-T was used for FOH (with EAW KF 730s, plus its longer-throw cousins, and two dual 18" subs per side) while an A & H GL 4000 was used for monitors (EAW LA 212s plus a drum sub). When walking from the audience area to backstage, the sound was pretty uniform.

best,

john

[aussie_techie]

GL4000 are nice and with the options on the direct outs (switchable pots inline aswell) it would be a nice multiple purpose desk. However with the extra features comes extra size then of course you need another rack for the power supplies and all in all that size just isn't feasible here.

While i have never used them other desks with switchable direct out are the Soundcraft GB series. The GB2R being rack-mountable.

[NorseHorse]

UPDATE: Finally getting some chances to put the M12 to use.

You can see a video of a show I did with it here:

William & Mary - Homecoming refresher: Accidentals perform the 'Alma Mater'

Audio details...

Solo mic = EV Cardinal --> ISA 220 (for compression) --> M12 --> direct out (pre) --> Edirol R-44
Ensemble mics = AT4050s --> M12 --> direct out (pre) --> Edirol R-44

Real easy. Doing another show this weekend. Still keeping an eye out for a romantic mixer way down the line, but I'm really happy to have a practical solution for now.

[Obitheincredible]

I can't say enough how much I love the M12, great sounding mixer! I use it with my layla 24/96 as my main utility pres and to route my audio through as volume control. Eventually I want to go more out the box with it and I believe it is perfectly capable of doing that. I still love the pres and EQ too.

[Fuzzy Logic]

have you ever considered using a professional cameraman? just kidding i could not resist.

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

UPDATE: Finally getting some chances to put the M12 to use.

You can see a video of a show I did with it here:

William & Mary - Homecoming refresher: Accidentals perform the 'Alma Mater'

Audio details...

Solo mic = EV Cardinal --> ISA 220 (for compression) --> M12 --> direct out (pre) --> Edirol R-44
Ensemble mics = AT4050s --> M12 --> direct out (pre) --> Edirol R-44

Real easy. Doing another show this weekend. Still keeping an eye out for a romantic mixer way down the line, but I'm really happy to have a practical solution for now.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

TSVISSER,

No apologies needed! This is a brainstorming session. I've also thought about ways to take advantage of the Grace if possible. I'm still sorting out just where / how I need my stuff stored in order to take advantage of everything. I do a lot of remote work and sometimes have two- or three-a-days in different locations, so being able to shuffle things around to divide and conquer is important. Pairing the Graces with a mixer might be the way to go though, but another stand-a-alone option might be better...? I guess time will tell.

It's going to be difficult to find a mixer with Grace quality pres. Most likely you're just going to take a couple steps down. Why not just passively split the outs of the 801 and use a good quality mixer at line level. When I first started I used a Grace, a DA78 and a mackie 1402. At line level the older (USA made) mackies sound just fine.

[Guitfiddle]

Is that a GMS drumset in the background of the soundcraft MFX12 video? It sure looks like a few made back in 1992. Just wondering if anyone remembers those kits back theen with the wrapping like that. In fact, I tried to get that exact same shell to add on to my kit a few years ago, and GMS said they don't have access to that wrap design anymore.

[phaseshift1]

Still loving the Soundcraft m12?

[Rolo 46]

Film mixers are lovely,compact and with excellent mic amps
I was doing a couple of bands yesterday at my Village Green Show, using 2 Sonosax ,SX6,SX8, one for utility ,the other for the music.
My friend thought we needed a specialist PA mixer (A&H) multi outs etc
We had Mackie active monitors as wedges and a MeyerSound 500 FOH and worked off a truck bed (Tautliner) as a stage.
SM 58's and Lexicons, verb and delay.
It worked like a dream, a mix of mikes and DI , on mainly Folk and RockaBilly.
A very big sound from the Meyers.

I bought my SX6 for 500 quid and the Meyers for 800 quid.
I borrowed the SX8 from a mate.
Very happy.

[Earcatcher]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Recently I've done several live shows recording a cappella groups while also running live sound. I run the snake to a splitter and run one set to a Behringer XENYX mixer mixing the FOH and the other through a Grace 801 to two R-44s for recording.

All the gear is cumbersome to transport (relatively) and I have to have someone else take care of patching the snakes while I'm setting up mics / cables / speakers, etc. I anticipate getting proportionally more gigs like this come fall, and I'm brainstorming ways to make my life easier/sluttier.

For those of you who aren't familiar with collegiate a cappella, the set-ups I most often see range from [1 solo mic, 2 group mics] to [2 solo mics, 4 group mics, 1 percussion mic, 1 bass mic]. I wouldn't really plan on going beyond this. So... I'm looking for a small mixer that could help me get rid of the splitter and extra rack of pres. I do a lot of classical recordings, so if this mixer could double as a go-to for radio-simulcast gigs AND triple as a summing unit, that would be great.

My requirements/range:

- Great Mic Preamps w/ 48v. (Great = must be suitable for classical.)
- LINE Ins too.
- Direct Outs. (Though I never really use inserts, so perhaps I should consider using those as DOs? Advantages/disadvantages?)
- At least 1 AUX send.
- At least three band EQ.
- No less than eight channels. No more than sixteen. (Eightish mic preamps is ideal. Two more stereo line-only channels might be handy though.)
- Relatively small size. Remote recording is my main thing, so I'm not looking for a large, beast of a mixer. The smaller, the better.

Are there any mixers on the market that seem well suited to my specific purposes? I'm not concerned about brand name.
I'm also considering custom-build options. Have any recommendations? It might be more fun...

Thanks in advance.

This is exactly why I have a Sound Devices 788T with CL-9 mixing surface! Perfect for location recording with the option to send out a live mix to the speakers. I never record the mix, just the tracks for mixing back home, so the mix can go to the hall entirely. The whole setup fits in a backpack, 8 mics, headphone and cables included. I only need stands on location if I won't bring them.

[ghellquist]

Perhaps not quite the same quality level, but definitely working stuff: Presonus StudioLive series, three different sizes to choose from. I run a 16:4:2 and find the preamps and AD quite useable. I run a mac mini for recording. Firewire cable is the weak link in that setup, too easy to pull. The live mixer has plenty of EQ / compressors / sends / buses with decent quality. Not very in love with the reverbs, they sort of work though.

/ Gunnar

[Boschen]

With a couple of jaw-dropping exceptions, none of the consoles I've seen mentioned in this thread would justify not bringing your Grace 801, IMHO. I just wouldn't be able to give up the 801 for a spirit or mackie's pres. I've had twin 801s for years in one system I designed, and they are freakin' awesome--going back to console pres is always a distinct downer after using that setup.

However, the 801 is pretty weighty, and portability is important, as is the option to not bring an assistant. I wouldn't sell the 801 to finance the other purchases, though.

[potscrubber]

I see you are using an edirol thing as a record medium so that invalidates my suggestion. However for the record, Yamaha DM1000 with 16ch ADAT output cards is a amazing package in a small footprint, and yes the preamps are definitely up to classical work.

[NorseHorse]

I am now on post #2000.

The resolution to my own story is a TL Audio M3 Tubetracker, an eight-channel tube mixer with line-ins, inserts, 4-band EQ, 2 auxes, and post-fade direct-outs (Sound on Sound: TL Audio M3). I purchased it Fall 2009, and it has continued to serve as my go-to a cappella mixer. Not small, but it is a pleasure to use.



I have indeed begun using the inserts, and the post-fade direct-outs have actually made my workflow more efficient (which I did not expect). I still use the Soundcraft M12 for gigs with more complex routing needs and pre-fade direct-outs, and I have not needed to augment with external pres for those jobs. The Grace 801 is still in regular rotation, but the M3 is not reserved for a cappella: UNC Symphony Orchestra - Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances, Op. 45: II - YouTube

Cheers.

[JHoffman]

The PreSonus StudioLive is a great live/recording console. You can recorded straight into Pro Tools or any other DAW for that matter via a firewire cable.

They have great smooth sounding pre amps, 4 band parametric EQ dynamics on every channel, 6 Aux, 2 FX processors, and direct outs on every channel.

They cost around $2000.00 for the 16 channel version but it is money well spent.

PreSonus StudioLive 16.4.2 | Sweetwater.com

[Jim Williams]

I used my rig last week out in the high desert, it was only 104 degrees. Everything worked except one SM98 has a bad ground.

The Soundcraft Delta 200 16x4x2 sounds wonderful, those preamps are heavily modified with ADA4898-2 super low noise, high speed opamps and Renesas 2SC1084 input transistors offering a -133db EIN at 50 ohms.

I can hear no hiss anywhere on those tracks, even the Jensen DI tracks are very quiet. The Alesis HD24XR also worked flawlessly. Mixing commences next week.

I sent vocal and keyboard feeds to the PA right from the aux section of the Soundcraft. The sonics were very nice and clear, much better than the PA rig by itself. I used AKG 535 vocal mics that also were modified and sound wonderful. The stereo mix was sent out to the inputs of a HD camera for stereo sound.

Besides dripping some sweat that needed cleaning off, it all went well. Tough gig for a beach boy used to 72 degrees all year long.

[Rolo 46]

My Sonosax SX 8 went all over the world and did exactly what the OP desired.
From the desert (Sahara,0-40 degree C ,no humidity, but the curse of sandstorms) to the humid hell (100%+) of high canopy rain forest and the slums of Bangledesh and survived.
My only gripe,LED metering......invisible in the mid day desert
Give me a Nagra Stereo modulometer any day.

[Arthur Stone]

[springer]

Forgive me and correct me if I am wrong...
You have: Mics->788T->CL9->(out to House)

Doesn't this setup up the textbook feedback loop?
I am itching to get my 788T, but for my current LIVE things, I split BEFORE going into my R44 with Lunatec or AEA TRP.

Patrick

Originally Posted by Earcatcher

This is exactly why I have a Sound Devices 788T with CL-9 mixing surface! Perfect for location recording with the option to send out a live mix to the speakers. I never record the mix, just the tracks for mixing back home, so the mix can go to the hall entirely. The whole setup fits in a backpack, 8 mics, headphone and cables included. I only need stands on location if I won't bring them.

[Arthur Stone]

Hi Springer, apologies - I edited my previous post as I re-read and noticed you'd already acquired your gear. I mentioned the 788, based in part on my experience of the Sound Devices 702, but I can see it's not really suited for your requirements. Quite pricey too...lol : )

[Earcatcher]

Originally Posted by springer

Forgive me and correct me if I am wrong...
You have: Mics->788T->CL9->(out to House)

Doesn't this setup up the textbook feedback loop?
I am itching to get my 788T, but for my current LIVE things, I split BEFORE going into my R44 with Lunatec or AEA TRP.

Patrick

Just like in any live mixing situation you will need mics that have good feedback rejection for this. See it as a live mixer with a recorder for the incoming separate tracks built in.

Speaking about mixing with the 788t, have a look here: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-p...uto-mixer.html

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

.
My only gripe,LED metering......invisible in the mid day desert

Same situation, but I replaced my peak and mute LED's with high briteness LED's. I used blue for the mutes and red for peaks, the solo is purple. You can't miss those as the LED's are designed for daylight traffic lights. At night they emit a very cool blue glow to the ceiling. If a peak LED goes off, you can catch it from the corner of your eye, or across the room.

[Rolo 46]

Good idea
What LEDS did you use
Was it painless?

[Jim Williams]

Very easy. I used 5000 mcd (millicandella) = 5 candle power 3 mm blue LED's for mutes and red 5000 mcd for the 3 mm peak LED's. Get them from Digi-Key and others. The solo/mutes are Soundcraft's push buttons with the lens for the light, that tames them a bit and directs the light upwards and away from the operator. The peak LED's are exposed and those are great, can't miss them. If they are too brash, sand them with 400 grit sandpaper to difuse the light. The 5 mm LED's are made up to 12,000 or more mcd, I used a purple 5 mm for the solo sense. Add a series resistor if they are too brite.