Classical editing - man oh man

[Yannick]

I fully agree with that list too, especially this item :
Editing quickly and getting the project finished with minimal re-visits by artists etc, having complete confidence in your judgment and work.

Of course, then you still need artists that are capable of such confidence.

Anyway, here in Belgium there is most often no budget for a producer, or most often the producer is a sit-in from the ensemble, or a befriended composer.

We pride ourselves on being better on the mark than any assisting producer. I don't mind having an extra set of ears, but then I need to be even more careful, as it is still my end responsability to have all the material.

Staying focused is just more easy when you are very busy !

[David Spearritt]

The complete confidence was "you" in your own editing work, not the artists. The list may look like a producer function, but this is what an engineer who wants to get the best gigs has to be. With the current economic climate and the shrinking of classical music, a pure classical producer would starve. Everyone needs more strings in their bows.

We have always found that once we get to site and setup, the most abundant requests on our expertise have been for producing input not engineering input, to repeat, "the difficult stuff".

[Haigbabe]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

Heh, so there is someone in this town making a profit, it appears!

And the person in question (Tom G), is one of the most talented and brilliant around.

No surprises that he gets proper rates for his work.

Plus, he's a lovely person.

Haigbabe

[BLP]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

• Reading a score, knowing all your music theory, dynamics markings, musical style etc
• Knowing when and where the musicians need to retake and marking it clearly and legibly on the score.
• Being able to direct a session, being authoritative but not dictatorial to the musicians and give them confidence and the security to play well.
• Know that when you leave the session you have enough takes.
• Being able to confidently edit many segments or takes together from the score and while re-listening to produce a "perfect" recording.
• Editing quickly and getting the project finished with minimal re-visits by artists etc, having complete confidence in your judgment and work.

That's pretty much it exactly! Good qualities for an engineer or a producer, just different ranks... With the exception of number two (unless it's an orchestrated session), those same things really apply to pop, too. I mean, any professional engineer should be able to get the sound; it's the details that make the difference. Wisdom from David once again! thumbsup

[Plush]

Originally Posted by BLP

That's pretty much it exactly! Good qualities for an engineer or a producer, just different ranks... With the exception of number two (unless it's an orchestrated session), those same things really apply to pop, too. I mean, any professional engineer should be able to get the sound; it's the details that make the difference. Wisdom from David once again! thumbsup

"Any professional engineer should be able to get the sound?"

Are you saying that engineers are interchangeable?

Engineers who get the sound get paid more than those who flop around trying to get the sound. (they end up NOT getting "the sound.")
Engineers who get the sound get the next job too.

[aracu]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

[*]Reading a score, knowing all your music theory, dynamics markings, musical style etc[*]Knowing when and where the musicians need to retake and marking it clearly and legibly on the score.[*]Being able to direct a session, being authoritative but not dictatorial to the musicians and give them confidence and the security to play well.[*]Know that when you leave the session you have enough takes.[*]Being able to confidently edit many segments or takes together from the score and while re-listening to produce a "perfect" recording.[*]Editing quickly and getting the project finished with minimal re-visits by artists etc, having complete confidence in your judgment and work.[/LIST]

Doesn't leave much up to chance, and combines the roles of engineer and
music director. The emphasis is on making an accurate recording of musical
compositions.

"I do not find any value(listening wise) in perfect performances that have been made so by an overdose of cutting and editing.." Teddy

The performance of classical music is already contrived in the sense that it is
re-creating something by reading notes off of paper or memorizing them. The musicians are like actors. A concert performance is similar to theater, while
an intentional editing approach is like putting together a film without visual images. It is designed specifically for listening to on electronic media.

Recording without editing doesn't guarantee a more authentic or more
natural sounding end result. It is a more appropriate philosophy for music
which involves an organic improvisation on the part of the performers, such
as Indian classical music.

However, I think Teddy has a point in that an obsessive amount of editing
could be detrimental.

[desotoslo]

Originally Posted by aracu

Recording without editing doesn't guarantee a more authentic or more
natural sounding end result.

I disagree...

As a symphonic player I must attest that there are times when the group is on and the feel is right and we, together, reach a new emotional height.

The music comes alive, and no amount of editing can recreate that power.

[aracu]

"there are times when the group is on..." -desotoslo

I don't think that we are radically disagreeing. If you happen to record those
moments it could make for a better recording, and if you capture less ideal
moments it might make a worse one.

[desotoslo]

probably so! anyhoo, I apologize for coming across as a SOB up there. I love to write and sometimes I get carried away with rhetoric. pay no attention to this babbling fool in the corner...

[BLP]

Originally Posted by Plush

"Any professional engineer should be able to get the sound?"

Are you saying that engineers are interchangeable?

Engineers who get the sound get paid more than those who flop around trying to get the sound. (they end up NOT getting "the sound.")
Engineers who get the sound get the next job too.

Right. Engineers who can't get the sound aren't professional engineers... You and I are on the same side! My statement is about "the sound", not the engineer; there are certainly different approaches to getting the sound and different interpretations of what precisely "the sound" is, but all pro engineers should be able to get a decent if not excellent sound. It is therefore other aspects of engineering that differentiate between engineers (e.g. workflow, the ability to edit, dealing well with clients, being prepared, etc.).

Engineers that get the sound should be paid accordingly. I just think that anyone who is truly operating at a professional level should be in a more refined state of excellence that worrying solely about making things sound good; it should be a given.

[BLP]

Originally Posted by Plush

Engineers who get the sound get the next job too.

And that's what makes them professionals!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Plush

"Any professional engineer should be able to get the sound?"

Are you saying that engineers are interchangeable?

Engineers who get the sound get paid more than those who flop around trying to get the sound. (they end up NOT getting "the sound.")
Engineers who get the sound get the next job too.

Engineers are NOT interchangeable but they are soon out of business if they cannot get the sound that the client wants quickly and with a minimum of fuss.

I assisted in a recording session two times with a big name engineer. The recordings were done at the Soldiers and Sailors Monument in Pittsburgh. We were all setup before the Wind Ensemble got seated, all the microphones and lines had been checked out and we were ready to record as soon as the engineer was done tweaking the settings on the console and moving some microphones around. The lead engineer was incredible and just watching him work was well worth all the grunt work I did for the gig. We recorded the Wind Ensemble for two and a half days and it was magic the whole time I was seated next to him.

The next year he could not make the gig. So they hired a very respected very well known engineer from New York. He brought all the latest equipment but was not ready to record because he was not organized. Where the first engineer was very organized this person had trouble figuring out what got plugged into what. He also was not a very quick worker and it took a long time to get things setup and ready for the recording session. We got some microphones cross patched and it took a while to get things sorted out and all the while the conductor of the Wind Ensemble is trying to keep the ensemble focused and ready to work. Finally everything gets set up and we start and there is one problem after another. The Producer, who I had worked with on the previous two gigs, was very nice and he and the lead engineer, the conductor and I had always gone to lunch together. It was always fun and a good team building exercise. The first morning of the 2.5 day recording session did not go well because we were late getting started and there were lots of problems that developed and when it came to go to lunch the lead engineer declined the lunch offer and stayed in the hall. I went and the talk at the table was "what do we do with this guy" because they both had real reservations about him. Back to the hall and again a lot of problems. We finished up and next morning we started in again and lot of problems. This time when the producer made the lunch offer the lead engineer again declined an asked if I would stay and help him do a couple of things. So I stayed. He looked at me and said "what is wrong" "everything seems to be going wrong all the time" He started crying. I told him what I perceived were the problems and how we could fix them. Thankfully he took my advice and the rest of the sessions went well and at the WRAP dinner the Producer thanked the lead engineer and also thanked me for my help Then the lead engineer said that if it had not been for me the recording would not have worked so well. It felt good.

It also taught me that just because someone is a big name it does not mean that they are all powerful and all knowing and the one problem that no one realized is that this lead engineer was use to doing only one small part of the engineering work and usually had one or two assistants that really did most of the nuts and bolts work and he just never had to do any of it so he was basically lost. I was able to fill in that side of the equation and we got the job done.

Hope this helps....

[hughesmr]

Tom, let me say that you have the best stories ... and I for one appreciate you taking the time and effort to share them all with us. Many thanks and keep 'em comin'!

Now, give us some NAMES ...

[saf34]

Hi Paul, is this by any chance the a well known Cambridge choir recording you're talking about?

[LX3]

In, fact... no. A fairly well-known South London choir. They were absolutely on it when you bear in mind how difficult the material is and how quickly we had to record it.

Second round of edits starts next week... and looking over the producer's notes on the first edit, the second edit will fix quite a few things - the benefit of a producer who has lived with the pieces in question for twenty years, when most of the performers were completely unfamiliar with them.

Whether we have the takes to fix the parts he wants fixed remains to be seen.

[David Spearritt]

Read the rather humbling requirements of the entrance exam for this course.
http://www.mdw.ac.at/studium/infobla...ngineering.pdf

Would weed out most of the goats and sheep!

[Roland]

What is more strangely disturbing is the relatively small amount of money that as a qualified Tonmeister you could make these days, that is is you can find a job. If you are that qualified, I would do something that has a chance of being a real career.

Regards


Roland

[Corran]

Can you expand on that thought Roland?

I am finishing up a graduate degree in music performance in about a year and am contemplating applying to McGill Uni. in their Doctorate of Recording Arts program. Are you saying that this degree would likely not be worth much, in terms of long-term salary?

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

Tom, let me say that you have the best stories ... and I for one appreciate you taking the time and effort to share them all with us. Many thanks and keep 'em comin'!

+1

/Peter

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by Corran

Can you expand on that thought Roland?

I am finishing up a graduate degree in music performance in about a year and am contemplating applying to McGill Uni. in their Doctorate of Recording Arts program. Are you saying that this degree would likely not be worth much, in terms of long-term salary?

That is correct. There simply are no career opportunities for classically trained producers today. Anecdotal exceptions exist (mostly for women in gender mainstreaming public positions).
Most of the degree holders will have to make a meager living with technical engineering jobs in broadcast, film or live sound, disregarding their sophisticated qualification.
The years invested will not pay off in terms of higher wages.

You will have ahead of you older established people and businesses, that barely get by and they made it big in times of a growing market. They compete with you with equipment that is written off and paid for. They are better connected and have experience. They will be around for some more time. In other words: you have no f**** chance competing with them and making a reasonable living in today's shrinking market. A shrinking (or even imploding) market in general has very few opportunities for newcomers.

Get a MBA or Law degree to get into some kind of management position in the music world, if you want to make a good long-term salary after your music performance degree. Do some nice chamber music productions on the side, if you are so passionate about classical music recording.

Or get your gender changed, so you have at least chances for a public position.

If you want to raise a family, maybe have a decent house and retire not rich but comfortably, then music recording is not for you.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I have worked with some really top named producers in my life. They are usually GREAT to work with a really can move a session along very nicely. I have also worked with a number of less known producers and for the most part they too can be GREAT to work with as well.

Sometimes it takes a very tactful producer to get the most out of the musicians without pissing everyone off. I worked with one such producer, Roy Christensen of Gasparo Records, and he was GREAT to work with and always got the best from the performers no matter what the obstacles. He was the one that told me that "if you keep the performers happy the recording session will go very smoothly" and he was right. We did a lot of Baroque records together and he was one of my really favorite producers to work with. He was a classically trained Cellist who got into producing because he started a record company and had to have someone on site to do the producing. I also worked with Joanna Nickrenz who was also one of the best of the best. (She passed away in 2002 Stereophile: Joanna Nickrenz: 1936–2002) She taught me a lot about producing and how to get the best from the performers as well as getting the sound she wanted and could hear in her head before I even got the microphones placed. An amazing women.

Good producers are a rare breed and if you find a good one you should nurture the relationship. As to making a living today in classical producing - good luck! There are fewer and fewer places doing classical recording in the US and worldwide it seems that classical labels would rather re release something they have already done than record new material since it is so costly to do.

FWIW and YMMV

[Corran]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

That is correct. There simply are no career opportunities for classically trained producers today. Anecdotal exceptions exist (mostly for women in gender mainstreaming public positions).
Most of the degree holders will have to make a meager living with technical engineering jobs in broadcast, film or live sound, disregarding their sophisticated qualification.
The years invested will not pay off in terms of higher wages.

You will have ahead of you older established people and businesses, that barely get by and they made it big in times of a growing market. They compete with you with equipment that is written off and paid for. They will be around for some more time. In other words: you have no f**** chance competing with them and making a reasonable living in today's shrinking market.

Get a MBA or Law degree to get into some kind of management position in the music world, if you want to make a good long-term salary after your music performance degree. Do some nice chamber music productions on the side, if you are so passionate about classical music recording.

Or get your gender changed, so you have at least chances for a public position.

If you want to raise a family, maybe have a decent house and retire not rich but comfortably, then music recording is not for you.

Quite a harsh assessment. I'd like to hear others' opinion, though perhaps this is material for another thread.

Is there really no place for a highly-qualified classical recording engineer? I want to run my own business (as I am now), it seems to me the "piece of paper" would at least help in qualifying me.

Also I have a friend that with just a BA in Mass Media got a job running sound and technology at a large firm and is making close to 60k a year, just doing that. I could be happy doing that, with nights/weekends spent doing "real" recording. I would not want to be in a management position though. Not my thing. I could also be happy running sound and teaching computer/sound classes at a university.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Corran

Quite a harsh assessment. I'd like to hear others' opinion, though perhaps this is material for another thread.

Is there really no place for a highly-qualified classical recording engineer? I want to run my own business (as I am now), it seems to me the "piece of paper" would at least help in qualifying me.

Also I have a friend that with just a BA in Mass Media got a job running sound and technology at a large firm and is making close to 60k a year, just doing that. I could be happy doing that, with nights/weekends spent doing "real" recording. I would not want to be in a management position though. Not my thing. I could also be happy running sound and teaching computer/sound classes at a university.

With 40 + years of classical recording under my belt I have never been asked for a copy of my college degree. It is not about the degree it is about the quality of your work and your networking and always being able to do a GREAT job under less than ideal circumstances. If I had a friend or a child of college age I would seriously suggest that they think about some other line of work than a recording engineer or record producer if they want to make money and live a "normal" life and I am in the business. Not a great time for anyone in the record making business.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Corran

Quite a harsh assessment. I'd like to hear others' opinion, though perhaps this is material for another thread.

Harsh indeed, but probably realistic, I would think.

Is there really no place for a highly-qualified classical recording engineer?

You may just get lucky and find an employed position (for which a piece of paper will be helpful). For freelance work, it won't do a lot, I guess.

[resound]

Originally Posted by Corran

I could also be happy running sound and teaching computer/sound classes at a university.

The McGill degree would bring academic cred with it, but.... Full-time and/or tenure-track positions are more and more scarce each hiring cycle. Teaching as an adjunct is not an economically mobile situation: do it if you can afford to not be making more money elsewhere. Most adjuncts do not make the equivalent of a living wage in their cities/regions, receive no benefits, etc.. You'd make more teaching flute lessons by far. There are a few exceptions to this norm, but the general state of the field (music and humanities in general) is bleak in higher education right now.

Do it if you love it. Don't do it if you expect the investment of time and potential lost income to be recouped through the freelance or academic worlds.

[Plush]

Here we are not even a year later and the doomsayers are out.

There are opportunities to do full time work in the recording bidniz.
They are in different areas and venues than in former times, however.

For example:

1. Game sound design and recording
2. Film sound recording--not only in Hollywood or Bollywood
3. Broadcast recording and live broadcast
4. Employment at a University as a recording person
5. Work at the FBI or other government audio dept.
6. Researcher in surround playback and recording at a University
7. Arts Management with a worthwhile organization
8. Employment as a Tonmeister with an orchestra
9. Chinese tv and opera audio mang--weluvyulongtime--comes with noodle
10. Work for Sony

Those who want it will have it, that I do know.

[Corran]

Thanks for chiming in Plush. You've given several examples that I had not even thought of (FBI). I think if I can get in with at least an international tuition waiver that I could not go wrong with a doctoral degree at McGill.

[resound]

Doomsayer perhaps, but the academic world is the one I live in and I'm all too familiar with the contraction there and the growing glut of over-qualified Ph.D.s teaching for peanuts... if at all.

As Plush points out, there are opportunities in industry and some good ones at that (audio forensics, audio information retrieval, etc.). McGill does great research. If you're computer-savvy (programing), also look at Ga. Tech, Stanford's CCRMA, etc..

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Corran

Can you expand on that thought Roland?

I am finishing up a graduate degree in music performance in about a year and am contemplating applying to McGill Uni. in their Doctorate of Recording Arts program. Are you saying that this degree would likely not be worth much, in terms of long-term salary?

Well only in so much as there is little classical recording going on for record/cd production, radio and tv is about the same as it always has been, however that is more often than not an employed job.

Plush is right, there will always be work around, however the nature of that work is changing and the degree course mentioned above was quite strongly geared towards classical recording which has definitely contracted as a market. More and more organizations (such as orchestras) are employing their own technical crew, but the wages aren't great. My own position is a good example, in that I'm getting the same or slightly worse rates than I was 10 years ago. My wife is a doctor and even on a middle grade she earns about what I can get daily, and the difference is she works 5 days a week. When she becomes a consultant she will make 3-6 times what a well paid audio engineer would get. Of course money isn't everything, however, with the economic model that most westernized countries are following, low incomes jobs are not really tenable, particularly if you are intelligent/talented enough to obtain a tonemeister degree, even low skilled jobs are paying slightly better these days and I know of many "sound people" who will work for very low rates because they think it's a way of getting a foothold. Many will argue that really skilled people will shine and I would certainly agree with that, however, I would also say that the quality of much of the gear these days means that even the improver's often produce quite acceptable results and bearing in mind many organizations budgets these days often even quite serious players are prepared to take a punt. Of course YMMV.

Regards


Roland

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Plush

Here we are not even a year later and the doomsayers are out.

There are opportunities to do full time work in the recording bidniz.
They are in different areas and venues than in former times, however.

For example:

1. Game sound design and recording
2. Film sound recording--not only in Hollywood or Bollywood
3. Broadcast recording and live broadcast
4. Employment at a University as a recording person
5. Work at the FBI or other government audio dept.
6. Researcher in surround playback and recording at a University
7. Arts Management with a worthwhile organization
8. Employment as a Tonmeister with an orchestra
9. Chinese tv and opera audio mang--weluvyulongtime--comes with noodle
10. Work for Sony

Those who want it will have it, that I do know.

At the college in town here you now have to have a Master's degree to be a dorm supervisor. You get room, board and a stipend for being on call basically 24/7. The college is also not hiring full time professors on tenure track but is hiring full time one year professors to teach a specific subject with in a discipline and they are not alone, lots of colleges are doing just that. Getting tenure is about 10 times harder than it was a couple of years ago and only the best of the best survive their 7 year ordeal to finally make tenure.

The list that you have is very nice BUT I know from personal experience that it is not easy to get a job in academia. Colleges are getting super selective and are overwhelmed with applications for even entry level audio jobs. Some of the other jobs you listed are bogus to say the least. Sony is laying off people, Orchestras are laying off people and most are in financial hot water, work at the FBI probably would require advanced degrees in acoustics and forensics as well as a background in audio, most broadcast facilities are laying off engineers, the PBS station I worked for has only a handful of engineers and no permanent audio engineers they usually assign that to the newest employee, when I worked there they had two full time professional audio engineers and 12 more engineers, most radio stations today only have one engineer who is what they call a six packer because he does work for six or more radio stations at the same time, for film sound read the Post Production forum here on Gearslutz to see that many people today are out of work even if they have amazing credentials. Look up on Google to see what audio jobs are advertised and you will find very few. It is a tough world out there right now and it is getting harder and harder for audio people to find work. I read that the median age for audio engineers is about 40 which means that it will be about 25 years or more before they retire and their jobs come open.

This was just posted on the BBC website this morning BBC News - BBC 6 Music and Asian Network face axe in shake-up Looks like 600 people will soon be out of jobs at the BBC. Also if you want to look at the local college's hiring board here it is Jobs at Oberlin - Oberlin College please note the number of non tenure track professors the college is looking for.