Sound Devices 702 Pres vs. Apogee Ensemble Pres

[Tabnetic]

Hi gang:

I have read the posts about the apogee ensemble preamps being quite good, but I was hoping to get insight on using them vs. the preamps in the 702t for a specific application.

I need to record piano and vocals on location in a client's house. They have a piano room, and *very* expensive/well-maintained pianos (hence recording there). I am planning on renting/borrowing good mics, perhaps Schoeps, Neumann, etc. (haven't decided) for the piano and vocals.

The predicament is that I am limited to the recording rig i can bring with me. I own a Metric Halo ULN-2, but ideally need more than 2 preamps.

I have access to an apogee ensemble and a sound devices 702t as well as a sound devices mix pre. Which would you prefer to use on a piano recording?

I should also say it's not for a classical album, but more of a singer-songwriter Tori Amos/Regina Spektor type thing. Ideally I'd like 4 channels (2-piano, 1 room, 1 vocal) of 24/96k so my options are:


1) use the sound devices 702t as well as the mix pre going into my edirol r-09 recorder (or my transit USB sound card for pro tools m-powered). however the a/d conversion on the r-09 and m-audio devices concerns me.

2) use the ensemble with 4 pres, and perhaps use the mix pre for an additional 2 channels if need be.


Sorry to be longwinded, just trying to be clear.

Thanks so much!


Tab

[boojum]

Using two or more separate recorders will cause problems synching the tracks in the mix. If it were me I would rent a good four channel recorder, an Edirol R-44 maybe, and go with that. Use good mics and you will be fine. You could even get good pre's to feed the R-44. I would not count on the R-44 powering four phantom powered mics for long using just its internal batteries. You would need to run off a wall wart.

Regardless of the brand, a four channel recorder will simplify your life greatly.


Cheers

[Tabnetic]

Originally Posted by boojum

Using two or more separate recorders will cause problems synching the tracks in the mix. If it were me I would rent a good four channel recorder, an Edirol R-44 maybe, and go with that.
Regardless of the brand, a four channel recorder will simplify your life greatly.

thanks, boojum:

yeah, the drift between different machines had occured to me, but i was figuring it wouldn't be much over the course of a 3-5 minute take, then I could clap a slate after each take.

that being said, it might be better for me to just bring the apogee ensemble and some long enough xlrs to not get any sound of my macbook's fan in the mics. most of my rental budget will be spent on mics, so i don't know about renting a Edirol R-44 in San Francisco.


does anyone have any other suggestions?

[Daniel Stark]

Combining multiple recorders sounds like a bad idea. Simple is good, don't worry about the fan noise unless you are using omnis. Do bring a long firewire cable.

BTW you could pick up a Black Lion Sparrow and Auteur and bring those along....not sure if you have $1000 lying around but running that into the digital inputs on the ULN-2 would really be the best thing to do here.

[Daniel Stark]

"1) use the sound devices 702t as well as the mix pre going into my edirol r-09 recorder (or my transit USB sound card for pro tools m-powered). however the a/d conversion on the r-09 and m-audio devices concerns me.

2) use the ensemble with 4 pres, and perhaps use the mix pre for an additional 2 channels if need be."

Of these two options, #2 wins by fatality.

[Tabnetic]

Originally Posted by Daniel Stark

"1) use the sound devices 702t as well as the mix pre going into my edirol r-09 recorder (or my transit USB sound card for pro tools m-powered). however the a/d conversion on the r-09 and m-audio devices concerns me.

2) use the ensemble with 4 pres, and perhaps use the mix pre for an additional 2 channels if need be."

Of these two options, #2 wins by fatality.

you're right.

what about bringing my uln-2 and the ensemble (neither of which will cost me anything) and sync either the clock of the ensemble off of the Metric Halo (or the other way around)?

i could then use the ULN-2 as a standalone A/D converter and go into the ensemble via s/pdif.

i like the idea of the black lion stuff, but need to keep my overhead down as i'd like to get good mics, and spend the rest of the recording budget on the overdubs we do back in NYC, etc.


i'll have to spend some time listening to both sets of preamps to see which i like on the piano better, though in knowing how the Metric Halo box works, it will be hard to impress me...

thanks!

[hv_]

I used to do that sort of thing with a laptop and a multi-channel sound card using its line-ins, often line-outing from other devices with better preamps. My multi-channel laptop rig uses an rme ff400 which can give me 8 line-ins which I think is similar to your halo. But these days I use a 744t or 788t instead. The 744 only has 2 mic pres so you'd still need to use one external mic pre and line-into it... I usually use a Bose pas in live performance for the vocal anyway which does it for me. The piano I usually do with a dpa 3521 xy kit directly into the 744's two mic ins. Also have an at825 which is way less expensive but still quite good; an nt4 is a bit quieter for a few bucks more. The 788 is an even better recorder with its 8 mic pres and is perfect for moving up to small jazz ensembles and such.

Howard

[hank alrich]

Originally Posted by Tabnetic

The predicament is that I am limited to the recording rig i can bring with me. I own a Metric Halo ULN-2, but ideally need more than 2 preamps.

Here's another approach: you can feed the ULN-2's insert returns with the analog output of a regular preamp and record four tracks at a time that way.

[Daniel Stark]

Oh i had another thought, API A2D might be cool!

I like that insert idea too! Then your mixing is already done for you.

[Tabnetic]

Originally Posted by Daniel Stark

Oh i had another thought, API A2D might be cool!

I like that insert idea too! Then your mixing is already done for you.

the A2D is a fantastic box, but outside of my price range. as you all no doubt know, Metric Halo is going to introduce an 8-channel ($6,000) unit tomorrow...which would be ideal, save for the price tag.

Originally Posted by Daniel Stark

I like that insert idea too! Then your mixing is already done for you.

the insert idea is ok, but not ideal for being committed to the mix so early on. we're overdubbing strings, percussion, etc. in New York and I'd like to have discreet tracks as much as possible to accommodate the expanding arrangement. right now it looks like ULN-2 and Ensemble will tag-team it.

does anyone have mic advice?

i like DPA's, but i was thinking two pairs of Schoeps CMTS 501's, one in x/y and one in m/s further back in the room. perhaps a 414 underneath?

vocal mic will *ideally* be a u67 or similar.

if anyone has time, here's the pre-production demo of one song, if that helps you get an idea for the vibe to give mic advice. i think this was done with rode nt-5's (?) and an RE-20 on vox. i should also say i don't like the sound of the piano here. it was not a well maintained piano, a crappy room, and it sounds too...harsh, but was good enough for a pre-prod demo.

http://www.thetenpaces.net/audio/Gel...urydiceWeb.mp3

thanks so much, you all have been so helpful thus far, i'm really appreciative.

[Tabnetic]

bumpity...bump

[Tabnetic]

well, so far, i've been advised that DPA's would be ideal for piano. i'm thinking ORTF on the side of the piano and M-S further back in the room when i get there. gotta listen to the room first, but maybe a mic underneath (or me with binaurals will be ideal.


any thoughts?

Thanks