Recording the Nationaal Jeugd Jazz Orchestra

[trompetfreak]

Hi there!
I'm about to record a bigband, and need to rent mics for that.

I've planned:

Drums:
RE20
Earthworks omni
KM184's overheads

Bas:
MBHO Side adress mic in the bridge
AR133 DI

Guitar:
M88

Piano:
KM184's
C535 for gain before feedback

Saxes:
KM140's (each)

Bones & Trumpets:
TLM103's (each)

Soli:
U89's (2)

ORTF: KM140
Audience narrow: KM140
Audience wide: KM140



Any opinions?
What would you different?
I can't get to one other DI brand, and am not keen on hireing, accept for Aguilar or REDDI, but since the mic sounds so great, I'm not sure it's worth it. The only other di's the venue provides are a dodgy countryman and 6 AR133's. The rental is mic's only, tho the venue I'm in provides all accept the U89's and TLM's.

There's DPA4006's aswell... How about them as A/B instead of the ORTF of KM140's?

I think I got it quite right, but opinions are needed since everything can be improved.


Will post the results afterwards!


Thanks!

[Don S]

If you're renting, I might add some ribbons for horns or piano. 103's are a bit harsh on brass. A U87 or TLM170 might be warmer if you can't use a ribbon. The 184 is not my favorite piano mic, try a TLM193 instead or a U87. Omni's sound great, but if the lid is off or fully open it may be too much bleed for the PA. 140's will sound very nice in ORTF! Sound like a fun gig - best of luck!

[trompetfreak]

Hi,
Thanks for the quick reply!
I changed the list to DPA 4021's on Piano and KM140's, 2 per brass-section and a DPA 4006 pair as AB overhead.

Ribbons would be awsome (coles, royers...) but the budget isn't there... The TLM's cost only 5 euro's per day...

Then there is the issue that the musicians are quite young, and aren't used to microphones, so probably won't be able to play with closemics.

I'm looking for a Count Basie or for some tunes Billy May sound.

[Svens]

1 Kick B52
2 Snare SM57
3 Snare bott SM57
4 Hat C451
5 tom 1 414 - 10
6 tom 2 414 -10
7 floor U87
8 oh l DPA 4011
9 oh r DPA 4011
10 bass mic 414 in "8" in bridge
11 bass di Avalon DI
12 guitar SM57
13 Piano l KM184 (or schoeps BLM if the hood is closed)
14 Piano r KM184 (or schoeps BLM if the hood is closed)

trumpets: 414 -10
Bones 414 -10 or U87-10
Saxes 414 -10 or TLM170-10

Solos TLM170s -10

Audience 2 x 184, 2 x 416

No room mics whatsoever.

That is how I recorded a big band last month, sounds pretty good. Offcourse, when u have a lot of money to spend you can get a lot of highend micros...

[ajfarber]

Count Basie or Billy May sound?

No bass DI what so ever!

Trumpets: 2 Ribbon mics
Trombones: 2 ribbons

Saxophones: 3 LDC mics

Drums: 1 LDC or SDC for entire set. No bassdrum mic needed, the bleed will be enough. Notice: one mic for the drums not nine.
Bass: ribbon, sdc or dynamic (EV re20, AKG d12 or Meyer m88)
Piano: 1 LDC mic only

The old 1960s Basie recordings would probably be made with RCA44, RCA77, Neuman M49/U47.

Anyway, this is a more standard way of recording a jazz big band. Spot mics for solos or additional mics in the reed section for flue/clarinet could help.

[fallforward]

You should be trying to get most of the sound from a stereo pair with the close mics bringing up some attack, especially if you are going for an older
'Basie' style sound. Now if you are doing GRP, then close mic everything. But from what you have said I would be looking to get most of the sound for the horns from the stereo pair. Also at the mix stage I would stay away from panning the piano hard. I usually just find a spot for it and put it there, instead of doing the wide low to high thing. Drums are panned pretty modestly as well. This is to let the stereo pair identify the space for which the recording exists.

Have fun man!
Robby

[Daniel Stark]

"Count Basie or Billy May sound?

No bass DI what so ever!

Trumpets: 2 Ribbon mics
Trombones: 2 ribbons

Saxophones: 3 LDC mics

Drums: 1 LDC or SDC for entire set. No bassdrum mic needed, the bleed will be enough. Notice: one mic for the drums not nine.
Bass: ribbon, sdc or dynamic (EV re20, AKG d12 or Meyer m88)
Piano: 1 LDC mic only

The old 1960s Basie recordings would probably be made with RCA44, RCA77, Neuman M49/U47.

Anyway, this is a more standard way of recording a jazz big band. Spot mics for solos or additional mics in the reed section for flue/clarinet could help."

I would go this way as well, if you place your mics a bit above each section you can get the soloists to be naturally louder as they stand which means fewer spot mics are needed.

My follow up question would be, if anyone knows if big bands recorded in this way (mic'ed by section) are typically seated as they would be in a concert. It seems like it might be useful to mix things up a bit....

[Daniel Stark]

Or the stereo pair could also be a good way to go. I have never recorded a big band before so what do i know (played in a bunch though)....but i'm pretty sure you don't want to mic everyone in this scenario.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by fallforward

You should be trying to get most of the sound from a stereo pair with the close mics bringing up some attack, especially if you are going for an older
'Basie' style sound.

Robby

This is not correct. The Basie Band, or any other name band, never recorded this way. In the 1930s, there may be only 2 or 3 mics used for a big band recording, but by the stereo era, multiple mics were used.

The method I decribed above will give that effect, but not exact. To really sound like 1960, you need to record to an analogue tube 2-track mashine like an Ampex 350 or 351.

Anyway, the least amount of mics possible is the way to go, at least for recording pro musicians.

[fallforward]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

This is not correct. The Basie Band, or any other name band, never recorded this way. In the 1930s, there may be only 2 or 3 mics used for a big band recording, but by the stereo era, multiple mics were used.

The method I decribed above will give that effect, but not exact. To really sound like 1960, you need to record to an analogue tube 2-track mashine like an Ampex 350 or 351.

Anyway, the least amount of mics possible is the way to go, at least for recording pro musicians.

Yeah totally agree with you man, which is what I described. Using a stereo pair to get the ensemble sound and then mixing in close mics sounds like a multiple mic setup to me. The point I am conveying is that if you are in a space that sounds good, you want to capture the horns as an ensemble, not just a collection of individuals through close mics (like a typical rock band).

The rhythm section would still have close mics regardless of how the horns were mic'd. So even using the stereo pair as the main sound for the horns, we're still talking a minimum of 3 more mics, if you just did one mic on each member of the rhythm section (and there was no guitar), though in reality it would be more like 8 to 10 mics for the rhythm section. Then add in the spot mics for the sections, and the solo mics, tracks start to pile up, but throughout, the main sound of the horns is still coming from a stereo pair. Most of the big band recordings I have done all have around 16 to 24 tracks depending on the number of soloists and whether they were blowing solos live, or overdubbing them. I hope this conveys my point a little more clearly.

Good Luck Guys!
Robby

[LX3]

Yep, I absolutely agree with Andy, for that 50's/60's big band sound, "section mic" everything as described. Mono, single mics for rhythm section instruments. (As long as there's no-one that's expecting a modern "hi-fi" close-miked sound that will get annoyed that it doesn't sound like the Jaco Pastorius Big Band.)

You're then just achieving a balance when mixing, and letting the spill be what it is, rather than close-micing every instrument and then having to try and put some space back into it.

(Although I think it's a good thing to orient the mics you're using to minimise spill. Omnis generally a bad idea, as you'll only get lots of cymbals, hihat and trumpets in them. )

If you prefer a little spread on the drums, with the option to mix them back to mono, go M-S on the overhead.

Sounds like a great project, with the budget for some great mics Love to hear how it turns out.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by fallforward

Yeah totally agree with you man, which is what I described. Using a stereo pair to get the ensemble sound and then mixing in close mics sounds like a multiple mic setup to me. The point I am conveying is that if you are in a space that sounds good, you want to capture the horns as an ensemble, not just a collection of individuals through close mics (like a typical rock band).

The rhythm section would still have close mics regardless of how the horns were mic'd. So even using the stereo pair as the main sound for the horns, we're still talking a minimum of 3 more mics, if you just did one mic on each member of the rhythm section (and there was no guitar), though in reality it would be more like 8 to 10 mics for the rhythm section. Then add in the spot mics for the sections, and the solo mics, tracks start to pile up, but throughout, the main sound of the horns is still coming from a stereo pair. Most of the big band recordings I have done all have around 16 to 24 tracks depending on the number of soloists and whether they were blowing solos live, or overdubbing them. I hope this conveys my point a little more clearly.

Good Luck Guys!
Robby

I've tried this at gigs where I only had 8-ins with a laptop or a DA88. Trust me when I say that a stereo pair is a bad idea for a big band. Yes, in theory the stereo pair will pick up the entire ensemble and you spot mic the rhythm section for more presence. But in reality, you still need to spot mic the brass for solos and muted passages where the saxophones just cover them up. Also, the ride cymbal tends to get too washed out in the main stereo mics and if the room isn't that good, the time delay between the drum set mic and the main pair, seems like there is a phase problem even when there isn't.

Bottom line is this, if at all possible, mic each rhythm section instrument, 3 mics for the reeds if they are in a line (in studio, the saxes can sit in a circle around 1 LDC on omni), and 2 mics for 4 trumpets, 2 mics for 3 0r 4 trombones.


Here's how RVG did a big band:
CTI Jazz: Buy Jazz Photos, Jazz Music, Jazz CDs and DVDs - produced by Creed Taylor.
Here's a big band date at Webster hall.
CTI Jazz: Buy Jazz Photos, Jazz Music, Jazz CDs and DVDs - produced by Creed Taylor.

[Schaap]

Originally Posted by Daniel Stark

"Count Basie or Billy May sound?
The old 1960s Basie recordings would probably be made with RCA44, RCA77, Neuman M49/U47.

Yep, live too, look Here

[fallforward]

we're both saying the same thing here so I am glad we are on the same page! I suggested doing the exact same setup as you listed, I guess I didn't explain it very well. I just found in my experience that I got a much more natural sound using a stereo pair for the horns. Granted most all of the big band recording I have done has been in a good sounding room, so maybe I have been spoiled! I just find when I listen to big band recordings and you can hear everything close mic'd, it just doesn't retain that 'ensemble' feel.

Tomatoes and Tomahtoes me thinks.

From one sax player/composer to another, Have a great day man!

Your website is awesome too by the way
Robby

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by fallforward

I just find when I listen to big band recordings and you can hear everything close mic'd, it just doesn't retain that 'ensemble' feel.

You're 100% right! Also, when bands record with the drums in one booth and the bass in another, you can kiss your ensemble playing (and swinging feel) goodbye.

The fewer mics, the better.