Live sound genius for Music Venue Help!!!

[Studio1jerusalem]

Hi i am helping a friend open a music venue for concerts,
its mid sized like 250 square meters, 15X15 approximate crowd expected is like 250 and the ceiling is very low its 3 meters high.

We want the sound to be the best because it will host acoustical bands and rock bands etc.... EAW, JBL. Appogee, etc....
I am very experienced in PA for concerts, but not indoors and not building high end systems.

It has to be very good,the best not two 500 dollars on Two mackie speakers.

So I am looking for a someone that can help me out plan this and also that has experience on Music venues.

Thanks

Leo

[tINY]

Tight pattern control may help.

The new Cerwin Vega active speakers sound really good and have a narrow beamwidth. Since they are sound-on-a-stick, it's easy to position them high up by the ceiling...




-tINY

[Mulmany]

Post a drawing of the venue, with seating area and stage marked out. What's the power situation there. Is this a rental space? Ceiling type?

[Studio1jerusalem]

The venue its a big hall no walls,
the stage would be like 8 meters long by 4 deep
in feet more or less its 24 feet long by 12 deep.
ceiling its 3 meters high that's like 12 feet.

[kooz]

Truthfully, you should retain the services of the professional AV installer in your area. Or at least search out someone in the city you live in who knows who to call. Simply posting dimensions won't get you much of a response, as you can see. What you need to tell us -and by us, I mean whomever it is you hire- is what you want it to look like, how loud you want/need it to be. There are ways to achieve anything, and by dealing with people who have done it and are doing it, you save yourself a bunch of time if not money from the outset.

[Studio1jerusalem]

well its like asking what DAW to edit in and you tell me pro tools or nuendo etc...

I am a PA engineer but don't know to much about a full system for a music venue. Here in my country, I will contact a Pro and will try to sell me something that its a good profit for him or trying to get rid of something.

Also its very paradoxical they will recommend equipment that its old etc...

I am looking for a Bob Katz of PA here in the forums.........

PA its a lot simpler then recording studios or mastering etc.

Very simple again its a 15 meters by 15 meters and the ceiling its 3 meters high. the audience will be approximate 250 people, I even amplified for 400 people with 2 JBL EONS but i am looking for quality world class that all the musicians and famous stars will want to perform here because they sound the best they ever did.

Again the acts will be from Reggae, world music, Jazz, Irish music, opera to Heavy Rock and if Al di Meola comes he will be happy to perform here.

We are not looking to open a small place with mediocre equipment we want a 5 star temple for music performances again its not a carnegy hall or disneyland here but it has to be at a level of a Hard Rock Cafe Live or Blue Note new york etc.....

The question is wich kind of system for PA and monitors.
My friend is building the budget so we have to know in wich direction
1000 dollars or 20 000 dollars.

Thanks for replying and youre time to the people who had answered so far but i am waiting for a pro if you know someone of youre pals here in the forums that is a PA FOH engineer etc please let me know.


Thanks Leo
tutt

[tINY]

Funny thing about professionals: They get paid.

Often, the guy you pay for advice isn't giving you better advice, just more detail and a fancy looking report.

Have you read the JBL sound system manual?
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/pssdm_1.pdf

If you are looking for details about what brands of what equipment to buy, you should talk to a local company after you get an idea of what you want. How many channels on the FOH? Do you need a separate monitor mixer? (Wedges and IEM support?) Digital or analog? Do you need on-sight recording? Are you going to have a whole system, or cover the basics and rent some gear when that 40 piece big band shows up and needs Comp/gates on all 40?

You could easily spend over $100k on a venue that size if you want a "5 start temple to music performance"... Don't skimp on the acoustic treatment.



-tINY

[Mulmany]

There are more issues in a live sound venue then a static recording studio. I'm sorry but if you think recording is easier and less complicated then live sound your just not experienced enough to see the truth.

If you want a world class venue try to find a place with a higher ceiling. 3 meters is not that much to work with once you add a stage, hang lights and speakers. Try to find a place with at least 20ft ceilings.

Be prepared to spend some money on Electrical requirements an room modifications (acoustic treatment).

A live venue takes a lot of planning and acoustic analysis, the one commonality between a live venue and a studio.

+1 to tiny's response.

[Enginearing]

The dimensions etc of your room/stage will probably dictate which system will suit the best, IE line array or cluster, and whether it is hung or groundstacked.

Find your local D&B Audiotechnik supplier. Abosolutely supreme stuff. in a room your size I'd think the Q series or C series would be appropriate. both can be hung or groundstacked.

alternatively locate some L-ACOUSTICS boxes probably some ARCs with DV series subs.

These are the two brands to look at if you really do want the best. Both companies should be able to provide installation advice based on your room map and any local suppliers of these products should be able to help with the installation.

Of course when you come to decide that you want the very best monitor speakers my votes would be with the same brands, as both of these companies make a vast range of quality boxes for all sorts of intended purposes).

(for the record in general, D&B speakers will require D&B amps which have built in processing etc. L'acoustics processing is best provided by Dolby lake units, and amplification from Crown or Lab Grupen amps)

d&b audiotechnik - Start
and
accueil

personally I'd also be heeding the advise of previous posters and look at getting the room treated.

2c kerchink

[tombak]

Originally Posted by Studio1jerusalem

Hi i am helping a friend open a music venue for concerts,
its mid sized like 250 square meters, 15X15 approximate crowd expected is like 250 and the ceiling is very low its 3 meters high.

We want the sound to be the best because it will host acoustical bands and rock bands etc.... EAW, JBL. Appogee, etc....
I am very experienced in PA for concerts, but not indoors and not building high end systems.

It has to be very good,the best not two 500 dollars on Two mackie speakers.

Two words: Meyer Sound
Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc. 2009

For that size of a space a few UPA-1P cabinets and a few USW-1 would do the trick, or if you need more power a pair of CQ-1 and 650-P subs would be more than enough.

The UPA-1P can be found at venues that size all over NYC (Knitting Factory, Joe's Pub, Makor, etc)

The UM-1P floor monitors are wonderful as well.

No I don't work for Meyer sound, I just love working with their products.

They're very nice people to do business with and being part of the tribe helps btw.

I also like Renkus Heinz systems that are right up with Meyer quality, but I've hardly been in many rooms with RH installed in NYC. I've also been a fan of Apogee as well.

[tombak]

PS Don't get talked into a digital console.

You can't go wrong with a Midas Verona .

[nickynicknick]

As others have pointed out, it's very difficult without actually seeing/hearing the space myself..here's a few thoughts....

-there are many high end PA's that could suit a 300 person club

- with really low ceilings, it will be imperative to have an effective series of delay speakers to supplement the mains...as your mix won't make it 15 feet in a crowded room

-room treatment is very,very, very important...in a club probably more important than the choice of PA (IMO)..there are many ways to approach this. all budget dependent

-the monitor rig should be top notch, if you want to attract great acts your rig should be able to accomodate 6 wedge mixes and 4 more stereo in ears mixes at a least

-you'll need separate FOH and monitor consoles (32 channels minimum)

- your split should be at least 32 channels

-build a stage that can accomodate a guitar tech and monitor world

-you must have a dressing room area that is comfortable, has a washroom and accessable from backstage

that's just a few things..but there's something you aren't thinking about that really kills the idea of having great acts...no one will be able to see their favourite band unless they are jammed into the front...with that ceiling height you can't really have an elevated stage....

did I mention that room treatment is more important than PA choice?

Nick

PS this is just the tip of the iceberg..it's definitely NOT EASY

[Enginearing]

so i'm guessing that by now most people would be starting to wonder about the sanity of starting such a great venue in a room with low slung ceiling with a capacity of 250 people..??

what types of PAs do you run on your concerts that you're experienced with?

[Matchless1069]

D&B systems are absolutely awesome and very expensive. It always goes back to you get what you pay for though. JBL vertec powered line array would be cheaper and sound good as well. Go on Stage Equipment, Lighting, Audio, and Video, there's used systems for sale on there and you could get a nice system without paying the new price.

Originally Posted by Enginearing

The dimensions etc of your room/stage will probably dictate which system will suit the best, IE line array or cluster, and whether it is hung or groundstacked.

Find your local D&B Audiotechnik supplier. Abosolutely supreme stuff. in a room your size I'd think the Q series or C series would be appropriate. both can be hung or groundstacked.

alternatively locate some L-ACOUSTICS boxes probably some ARCs with DV series subs.

These are the two brands to look at if you really do want the best. Both companies should be able to provide installation advice based on your room map and any local suppliers of these products should be able to help with the installation.

Of course when you come to decide that you want the very best monitor speakers my votes would be with the same brands, as both of these companies make a vast range of quality boxes for all sorts of intended purposes).

(for the record in general, D&B speakers will require D&B amps which have built in processing etc. L'acoustics processing is best provided by Dolby lake units, and amplification from Crown or Lab Grupen amps)

d&b audiotechnik - Start
and
accueil

personally I'd also be heeding the advise of previous posters and look at getting the room treated.

2c kerchink

[domokunrox]

DBX Driverack PA

RTAS feature. Use it.

[memphisindie]

I've done a lot of room mixing in NYC at the old Bottom Line, Lonestar Roadhouse, China Club, CBGB's, in addition to largescale outdoor arena stuff.

What's the budget?

You said 12 foot ceilings, 45 ft wide by 45 ft length, room, 24 ft stage by 14 feet.

First.
Have you ever seen a scalloped ceiling? I would scallop the ceiling very slightly in lengths that will minimize the standing wave which is 45 feet long, scallop and drap the walls the same way, don't lose too much real estate. If you can't do that, hang panels as if they were those scalloped walls and ceilings. Drape the sides. Treatment must be first.
Second.
You'll need a small line array, you like EAW, get a 730EAW: KF730 Series series system, Power them with Crown Itech I-Tech Seriesor their more retail Crown digital switching cousinhttp://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/xti.htm, they both work very well, weigh nothing, are very powerful, and sound great. Ceiling mount and hang if you can, reduce the need for delays.
Third
EAW also has some new Microwedges with 12" and 15" woofers that are kinda like their old ones only better and smaller, get those. Power them with the same Crown power.EAW: MicroWedge
Fourth
I'd use DBX digital signal processors on all speakers, because the are very adjustable,
I've used Protea, Omnidrive, BSS, and DBX 4800, I like the 4800, but, you need it's compatible lil bro, the 260 dbx® Professional Products DriveRack® 260 Complete Equalization & Loudspeaker Management System for every box. Update-able, programmable, network-able if desired you can control it from FOH.
Fifth
You need a snake with a transformer split on it, or, a digital snake that breaks out to a Cat5 or Coax/fiber optic. You want something that can be patched into effortlesly by Effanel or some other great Remote Recording type facility, or you can handle that in house too. If you get a Digico D5 digital board, you can do a ton of things, the audio will be fine and it's kinda like running a PT session, you can save settings on a USB key and recall the whole shebang in a few seconds, you can give each bands settings recalled nearly instantly, that's one of the advantages of the D5, recording is also easy, sending a digital mix to a router is a breeze too or to a video truck, or, streaming over the web, yada yada yada.
If you use a digital snake it solves a lot of problems down the line. Make sure you get one that doesn't create problems especially compatibility problems.
Sixth
Mics, you might want to have on hand, 10 DI's, 15 SM58's, 10 SM 57's, 4 Sennheiser long shotguns, 4-6 AKG 414 oh's or 535EB's, AKG D12, D112, D12E for kick, and some Crown PZM's, and get some LDC's like Peluso's or modded Oktava's or modded MXL993's for just general SDC miking stuff, and 2-3 Neuman TLM49's for sax's and horns ( you could use a 57 too but, hey, you said high end). Use shockmounts on whatever you can, even if it's the kind that look like a typical mic clip mounted on a thick rubber band, they help for OH's and really everywhere else too.
Make sure you have enough amperage to run your amp stacks and stage.
Seventh,
You'll need special lighting, I suggest a low voltage system with moving heads an special gobos at least one with your logo, get at least 7 of those, and some colorchanging washes too, all programmable DMX512 and a good controller with a joystick, add three to four robotic cameras a swithcher and recorder and you're done and broadcasting.

[pietro79]

Originally Posted by tINY

Have you read the JBL sound system manual?
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/pssdm_1.pdf

-tINY

WOW! That's a great manual, thanks tINY! I've been studying acoustics for a few years, but always find it daunting to really apply what I know with confidence. This organizes my thoughts nicely

p

[adamboon]

Nexo PS15R2, Digico SD10, PS10R2 wedges, RS18 sub, power it all with Camco. Done!

[Boschen]

Originally Posted by Enginearing

so i'm guessing that by now most people would be starting to wonder about the sanity of starting such a great venue in a room with low slung ceiling with a capacity of 250 people..??

what types of PAs do you run on your concerts that you're experienced with?

My thought exactly. The goals don't fit the room.

If you really want a great sounding room, get ready to drop serious cash on an acoustic consultation, then on whatever mods your builder says may be viable through construction retrofit, and finally on the actual room treatment itself.

If there's anything left over, we can talk sound systems.

Or you could start with a room that's already an acoustically friendly space.

[Roland]

Not a suitable room for line array, too wide and short length. Your ceiling hieght is a problem, you need to try and keep reflections off it. D&B, EAW, Meyer, L'acoustic, all make products that will work, but, considering the venue, I would possible look at some more budget solutions, a space like that isn't likely to be worth thowing huge amounts of money at, and a well tunned budget system will likely sound as good in there.

[Boschen]

Originally Posted by Roland

Not a suitable room for line array, too wide and short length. Your ceiling hieght is a problem, you need to try and keep reflections off it. D&B, EAW, Meyer, L'acoustic, all make products that will work, but, considering the venue, I would possible look at some more budget solutions, a space like that isn't likely to be worth thowing huge amounts of money at, and a well tunned budget system will likely sound as good in there.

Agreed. Why waste money on a high end system in a room where it will never shine? Make the goals and budget commensurate with the space, or find a better space.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Studio1jerusalem

well its like asking what DAW to edit in and you tell me pro tools or nuendo etc...

You'll get a dozen differing answers, and all may be suitable.

I am a PA engineer but don't know to much about a full system for a music venue. Here in my country, I will contact a Pro and will try to sell me something that its a good profit for him or trying to get rid of something.

Also its very paradoxical they will recommend equipment that its old etc...

A system for a small music venue the likes you are talking about is the most basic type, due to the size of the venue, you don't need much power, but you need a system that can be run low and used in a re-enforcement role. QSC, HK Audio, make suitable, affordable options for these applications, D&B, Meyer, L'acoustic also make great options, but they will cost 2-3 times more.

I am looking for a Bob Katz of PA here in the forums.........

PA its a lot simpler then recording studios or mastering etc.

No it isn't, it's every bit as complex and can be highly technical, though in truth rooms this size generally can be worked out by trial and error as well as as most forms of measurement. Due to the dimensions, you are going to have some resonance issues, how bad is a guessing game at present, get a system in the room and find out.

Very simple again its a 15 meters by 15 meters and the ceiling its 3 meters high. the audience will be approximate 250 people, I even amplified for 400 people with 2 JBL EONS but i am looking for quality world class that all the musicians and famous stars will want to perform here because they sound the best they ever did.

World class and "famous" act's play in your joint, because, "A" it suits them, "B" you can afford their rates, remember they can usually tour great venue's with any top class rig they want, just having good kit isn't going to make them play there.

Again the acts will be from Reggae, world music, Jazz, Irish music, opera to Heavy Rock and if Al di Meola comes he will be happy to perform here.

We are not looking to open a small place with mediocre equipment we want a 5 star temple for music performances again its not a carnegy hall or disneyland here but it has to be at a level of a Hard Rock Cafe Live or Blue Note new york etc.....

These venue's have a lot of money, famous people and status behind them, the Blue Note of course is seen as NY's premier Jazz Venue, not unlike Ronnie Scotts in London.

The question is wich kind of system for PA and monitors.
My friend is building the budget so we have to know in wich direction
1000 dollars or 20 000 dollars.

Thanks for replying and youre time to the people who had answered so far but i am waiting for a pro if you know someone of youre pals here in the forums that is a PA FOH engineer etc please let me know.


Thanks Leo
tutt

Well I class myself as a PA FOH engineer, though I work in recording as well. $20,000 won't get you far, my live console costs over twice that. If you go with 6 second-hand D&B Max 15's they will cost you over $10,000 without amp's, a cheap decent desk solution, like a Studiolive 24 or a Yamaha LS9 $4000 - 7,000, FOH speakers, like Meyer UPA's at around $2,000 each, maybe you would get away with just 4, but you still need subs, and amps. Leave a fair amount for cabling (this costs more than you think). For a venue the size you are talking about, a good selection of 58's, Beta 58's, 57's, Beta 57's, Sennheiser 604's, Beta 52, a few DI boxes, and possible 4 reasonable stick condensers (Rode NT5's a great for the money), you should be able to rock an roll.

[Frobog]

+1 for the Studiolive 24, I mix on one in a mid-sized, 600 capacity room w/ low ceilings and a small sound booth and it does the trick quite nicely. Having gates and comps on every channel saves a lot of space and patching, very convenient. We have EAW KF650z's (two a side) for the mains and 6 W-bin subs (4 JBL and 2 OAP). Also EAW SM155Hi's for monitors. Powered by Crown, Driverack 4820 for processing. No treatment though :(. Can take a bit of corrective eq for everything to not sound like mud sometimes, so definitely don't skimp on treating the room.

[adamboon]

I Hate the StudioLive! I'd rather an O1v!

[organsymphony]

Originally Posted by adamboon

I Hate the StudioLive! I'd rather an O1v!

Valuable input there. How about some opinions and explanations why?

[noodle650]

Originally Posted by adamboon

I Hate the StudioLive! I'd rather an O1v!

+ 1.

[jasonraboin]

Originally Posted by Enginearing

(for the record in general, D&B speakers will require D&B amps which have built in processing etc. L'acoustics processing is best provided by Dolby lake units, and amplification from Crown or Lab Grupen amps)

You can no longer buy L'acoustics products without also buying their amplifiers.
The only D&B speakers you can use without D&B amplifiers are the MAX series.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by organsymphony

Valuable input there. How about some opinions and explanations why?

It all becomes a little academic. At the price of the Studiolive, it doesn't have (at the present time) any competitors. For everyone who say's they hate it there are a dozen more that say they love it. Liking kit is the luxury of having enough budget to have a choice, there are plenty of samples of recordings done on Studiolive desks posted here on Gearslutz, so take a listen, no obvious problems with sound quality, ergonomically it's probably not the best, but then what do you expect at the price.

[t_chance]

Originally Posted by adamboon

I Hate the StudioLive! I'd rather an O1v!

apples and pineapples

[adamboon]

Originally Posted by organsymphony

Valuable input there. How about some opinions and explanations why?

Top end is terrible (hard, grainy, edgy), and just listen to the effects (reverb & compression especially)... Woeful!