piano mic-ing advice

[jazzmanATB]

I have a great Mason and Hamlin 9' concert grand in a huge orchestra room at my disposal and I would like to do some solo and trio recordings. Here are the mics/pres that I will have:

SDC's
Rode NT5 pair
Studio Projects C4(pair with omni and cardiod)
Beyer MC930s (pair)

LDC's
AKG 414
Bock 195

Pres
Pacifica
Great River single channel


I am thinking based on research, omni pair spaced as close mics, and maybe A/B with Beyers at a 15 foot distant pair. But I have recorded this piano in this room with just the NT5's and tried every possible spaced pair position known to man with mediocre results. Just sounded too bright(too much hammer) and a little unfocused no matter how far or spaced I took it.

What would you try first? maybe you can help save me some time with trial and error. Its a beautiful instrument in a treated(large bass traps hanging and a ceiling with diffusion and a pattern of missing tiles) room that sounds wonderful when listening with human ears. But so far, I have not been happy with the recorded results. I did not try X/y or ORTF yet.

THanks for any help.....as usual I try and read as many pertinent posts here as possible first....and will take all advice. The Pacifica and Beyers are new this week so I am hoping they help some.

Alan

Alan Blackman on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

[Corran]

Maybe try your Beyers looking in to the piano in ORTF, about a foot or two out, and then AB with the RODE or Studio Projects mics in the hall. I have done well with a combo like this. However, my mics of choice were Oktava 012s in ORTF and Earthworks omnis in the hall. Your mics might be a tad bright which could cause your issue? Or maybe it's the piano?

[Dave Ferris]

Originally Posted by jazzmanATB

I have a great Mason and Hamlin 9' concert grand in a huge orchestra room at my disposal and I would like to do some solo and trio recordings. Here are the mics/pres that I will have:

SDC's
Rode NT5 pair
Studio Projects C4(pair with omni and cardiod)
Beyer MC930s (pair)

LDC's
AKG 414
Bock 195

Pres
Pacifica
Great River single channel


I am thinking based on research, omni pair spaced as close mics, and maybe A/B with Beyers at a 15 foot distant pair. But I have recorded this piano in this room with just the NT5's and tried every possible spaced pair position known to man with mediocre results. Just sounded too bright(too much hammer) and a little unfocused no matter how far or spaced I took it.

What would you try first? maybe you can help save me some time with trial and error. Its a beautiful instrument in a treated(large bass traps hanging and a ceiling with diffusion and a pattern of missing tiles) room that sounds wonderful when listening with human ears. But so far, I have not been happy with the recorded results. I did not try X/y or ORTF yet.

THanks for any help.....as usual I try and read as many pertinent posts here as possible first....and will take all advice. The Pacifica and Beyers are new this week so I am hoping they help some.

Alan

Alan Blackman on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

Hi Alan---SK says hi.

I'm looking for mics and preamps for my Steinway too. Lots of helpful info around here.

[John Willett]

My starting point for a concert grand is 20cm spaced omnis about 2m from the piano at about ear height.

Then shift according to music, piano and room.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

I'm looking for mics and preamps for my Steinway too. Lots of helpful info around here.

For the past 20 odd years my no.1 for piano have been a pair of MKH 20.

The last 4 CDs were done with a pair of the Neumann digital KM-D omnis.

The next I will probably use MKH 8020 with MZD 8000 digital module.

[Jungle Jazz]

For a trio setting, I'd try the MC930 pair in ORTF looking into the open lid, and the 414 in wide card, placed inside the piano above the point where the strings cross. For solo work, I'd pull the MC 930s back a little bit, still in ORTF, and place the 414 in the room where it sounds best.

[jazzmanATB]

thanks all for ideas. Now with ORTF, are the mics on the same vertical plane, or one higher than the other? I seem to have run across pictures of it both ways. Without a proper bar, how do you get the 110 angle and 17 cm spacing?

And with the spaced mics do you usually point them looking into the piano or straight up? I have seen this both ways as well.

apologies for ignorance...


alan

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by jazzmanATB

thanks all for ideas. Now with ORTF, are the mics on the same vertical plane, or one higher than the other? I seem to have run across pictures of it both ways. Without a proper bar, how do you get the 110 angle and 17 cm spacing?

ORTF is for cardioids only and I would use omnis on a grand piano.

However, the spacing and angle has to be correct for ORTF - with remote heads like the Neumann, Schoeps and Sennheiser MKH 8040, these are small enough to get on the same plane; with longer mics you need a riser to get one above the other.

Originally Posted by jazzmanATB

And with the spaced mics do you usually point them looking into the piano or straight up? I have seen this both ways as well.

apologies for ignorance...

This depends on the mics you use and where you place them.

On a recent recording I used two pairs of microphones (I wanted to compare the two with the same piece).

The MKH 20 are ruler flat and were pointed directly at the piano.

The KM 183-D are diffuse-field omnis with a treble boost to compensate for the lack of higher frequencies beyond the reverberation radius - as they were being used in the nearfield they were too bright, so I tilted them to get the corret response. In this case they needed to be at 90° to get a flat response (the mid's polar pattern tells you this).

I hope this helps.

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by jazzmanATB

I have recorded this piano in this room with just the NT5's and tried every possible spaced pair position known to man with mediocre results. Just sounded too bright(too much hammer) and a little unfocused no matter how far or spaced I took it.

No wonder! You can toss those NT5's! I make no apologies for my rather dim view of those mics. You'll never do justice to a grand piano with those, or much else I'm afraid. I haven't used the other SDC pairs you have but I can say that my $500 Avenson STO-2 matched pair knock most budget mics, including anything by Rode I've heard, into a cocked hat.

But you have some decent pre-amps and as you say, a lovely piano. If I were in your shoes I'd break the bank for a pair of high-end mics for your piano - anything less and you'll always be wondering. One day I will own a pair of Schoeps - you might care to start there!

Originally Posted by jazzmanATB

Now with ORTF, are the mics on the same vertical plane, or one higher than the other?

As John says with some mics you need a spacer widget to raise the vertical level of one of the mics for both XY and ORTF. Here you can see one of my M300 mic clips is longer than the other enabling it to sit in a higher plane. (I'll try to get a better photo later!)

Originally Posted by jazzmanATB

Without a proper bar, how do you get the 110 angle and 17 cm spacing?

Again, Gefell are helpful enough to provide a transparency with the M300 matched pair that you can overlay to check angles etc.

Alternatively, and ultimately the best solution, get a proper stereo bar with angles etched into it for accurate, repeatable settings, like this one John himself just bought!

[joelpatterson]

My secret for getting warmth/clarity/magic mojo from a piano is having some kind of tube mics hovering right over the ribs of the harp, one down at the far end for bass and then one at the second rib in, up near the hammers, for treble, and then blending that with some kind of exterior pair, but that's my own copyrighted system, you would need to fill out a form first.

I've heard a very reputable know-it-all describe a "fool-proof" system-- you take your high-dollar teensie omnis off of the ORTF bar, and-- how to describe this properly-- each is about six feet off the ground. The trebly one is three or four feet out from the widest part of the open lid, and the bassy one a little further (from the narrow part), the set is angled back from what would be facing the piano perpedicularly. The two mics are say five feet from each other.

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Like, uh.... this?

[nigel saunders]

I have had a great result with 2 boundary mikes tapes to the lid plus a tube mike pointing in from the side.
cheers

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by nigel saunders

I have had a great result with 2 boundary mikes tapes to the lid

Can work well - until one falls off onto the strings in the middle of the performance, as happened to me many years ago.

[Audiop]

Ouch!


/Peter

[James Lehmann]

FYI Forum member Didier Brest has done a great piano mic shoot-out here - check it out!