Preamp (and mics) for "upright's" (piano & bass) jazz

[Dzoing]

Hi everybody
This is my first post (!)

I want to track jazz combo "à la RVG" (I mean old school and not w i d e and bright and cleeeaan). My piano is a very good upright: a big handmade german Steingraeber & Söhne, great "german souding", that is full and rich but not as bright as a Yamaha or US Steinway). Mics availables a the moment are: AKG 414 XLS (2), KM84 (2), SM57.

Placing the 414's ORTF in front of the open lid (over the head of the pianist), about 2 feet from the soundboard, seems to be working but the sound is kinda cold and metallic. Low-mids are muddy. With the km84's, the sound is brighter but still cold. Pre's are the stock of my Allen & Heath GS3000 console.

I plan to buy a better preamp, I thought about Phoenix audio drs-2 or wunder audio.

So I have 2 questions:
- Which great preamp would you suggest for this purpose? How would sound 414 and km84 through a phoenix and/or a wunder?
- Which mic do you prefer on piano?

By the way which mic would you use on the double bass? Should I use two 414 on the piano and one km84 inside the bridge of the bass, or two km84 on the piano and one 414 on the f-hole?

Which make, at least, 3 questions...

Thanks
Dzoing from France
(PS: sorry for my bad english...)

[Beech]

I'm sure you'll get many different opinions on this but I'll jump in with the first. I've been experimenting with upright piano for some time and I now take off the front cover completely so the innards are exposed. This tends to help especially with the boxy or muffled sound on the lower notes a gives a much more open sound. Your mics are a good starting point so how about placing a 414 either side of the player's ears. You really have to experiment with the placement of these. That may require lots of running back and forth to the control room!

Since you have the 184s how about placing them behind the piano? Sometimes that gives me nice results but try a keep them on separate tracks and decide later.

As far as a mic pre is concerned the GML 8304 is just right for this job (and many others). I'm sure there will be more suggestions from others on that score!

And the tall bass, well, a 414 around the f hole would be reasonable. Mind you, for jazz it's a good idea to have a mic further up the neck as well. Personally I think the U195 or AEA 84 are lovely for bass but do try and experiment with placement.

just my 2c

[Mrs. Fairman]

Originally Posted by Dzoing

Hi everybody
This is my first post (!)

I want to track jazz combo "à la RVG" (I mean old school and not w i d e and bright and cleeeaan). My piano is a very good upright: a big handmade german Steingraeber & Söhne, great "german souding", that is full and rich but not as bright as a Yamaha or US Steinway). Mics availables a the moment are: AKG 414 XLS (2), KM84 (2), SM57.

Placing the 414's ORTF in front of the open lid (over the head of the pianist), about 2 feet from the soundboard, seems to be working but the sound is kinda cold and metallic. Low-mids are muddy. With the km84's, the sound is brighter but still cold. Pre's are the stock of my Allen & Heath GS3000 console.

I plan to buy a better preamp, I thought about Phoenix audio drs-2 or wunder audio.

So I have 2 questions:
- Which great preamp would you suggest for this purpose? How would sound 414 and km84 through a phoenix and/or a wunder?
- Which mic do you prefer on piano?

By the way which mic would you use on the double bass? Should I use two 414 on the piano and one km84 inside the bridge of the bass, or two km84 on the piano and one 414 on the f-hole?

Which make, at least, 3 questions...

Thanks
Dzoing from France
(PS: sorry for my bad english...)

TMA Tube Preamp:
http://www.truetrackrec.de/TMA.htm

[Vari-Mu]

Originally Posted by Mrs. Fairman

TMA Tube Preamp:
http://www.truetrackrec.de/TMA.htm

I don't think this type of dealer contribution is all that helpful ...or appropriate.If you simply want to advertise you should pay Jules for a banner.

The DRS-2 will be slightly less coloured than the Wunder. Ive been using the Phoenix for jazz quite a bit and it works well. Big rich tone with a smooth top. But I'm sure the Wunder would also be great. For an old school sound something like the Fearn would be better yet. However, given they're good quality, I think preamps are far less important for jazz than the room and mics.

Best

Vari-Mu

[robmix]

I use the Wunder PEQ-1's in this application all the time. Little bump at 10khz and roll off at 60hz. Run that through the Alan Smart C2 with about 1-2db of gain reduction. Prior to the Wunder's I always used the Great River MP2nv's with great results as well. I tend to mic the upright with the lid up, one over the bass strings (F1 or so) and the over the treble strings (F6) about 6 inches up.

[Dzoing]

That sounds cool ! I also tried the mic placement you suggest and it sounded good.

Should I read you add a little 10kHz eq (I think so) , or is it the way the wunder pre's would sound straight forward? How are the wunder eq, what kind of Q?

I thought Alan Smart C2 (which I didn't tried) would be more for heavy rock suitable, but in principle I like some kind of "unwedged" usage... As far as comp is concerned, did somebody play with the Thermionic Culture Phoenix Compressor (UK)?

Folks, which pre would you suggest on the bass mic, for a distinctive and full bass sound through the mix? "à la Ray Brown" (but sadly without Ray on the bass....)

[echorec]

I just a made a trio recording with upright piano. The preamps were Siemens V77 and I got excellent results, very warm and upfront. The mics were U89s inside with the front of the piano closed.

[echorec]

...also, if you can rent or borrow a U47 or U48, it will be soooo easy to record the double bass. Any decent preamp will work if you have such a mic.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Dzoing

Hi everybody
This is my first post (!)

I want to track jazz combo "à la RVG" (I mean old school and not w i d e and bright and cleeeaan). My piano is a very good upright: a big handmade german Steingraeber & Söhne, great "german souding", that is full and rich but not as bright as a Yamaha or US Steinway). Mics availables a the moment are: AKG 414 XLS (2), KM84 (2), SM57.
snip...

I often like SD condensers on upright bass - I haven't tried the KM84, but have used a KM184 a few times with great results - split between the fingerboard and the body, a little ways back can get a nice, articulate sound, but great sound comes more from the player, not the axe...

I would also try micing the soundboard (rear) of the upright piano - I've had great results with less than stellar upright pianos, but used U67's and KSM44's thru Hardy M1's and/or API's - both made for a really nice, detailed sound, and no mud. I'd think the 414's could yield a good sound, tho not as exciting as some other mics might provide...

Good pre's are nice and can help out, but I believe aren't nearly as important as great players, and the right mic's, tho I wouldn't throw out a GML/Fearn/Milennia etc if I had the opportunity to use them either, not to mention almost anything would smoke the A &H pre's you're currently using. I'm looking forward to trying out my Portico on a piano in the near future, but no experience with it on one as yet. I tend to like clean pre's, esp. for transparent stuff, and I think jazz is a bit more purist recording than many other styles, but there are no rules...

YMMV, but have fun experimenting! it's all good, unless it's not - then it's bad!

[Dzoing]

Thank you folks for your constructive replies!

Yeah I'm considering to get a Soundelux. How would a U195 sound on upright bass? Or a ifet7, which is more expensive (is it worth it, compared to the U195?). It would be nice if the mic would also fit for additional or mono micing inside the piano. Which of those would be more versatile, regarding both applications?

(However I read that SD have some reliability issues and bad custumer services, quite frightening...)