Choir mic'ing very cheaply

[DeeDrive]

I'm going to be doing a recording of a 16 piece choir soon, and I wanted to get a pair of mics that can handle the job. The other pair of mics I have is a super cheap MXL 993 set that actually sound pretty decent, but I'm thinking a pair of large diaphragm condensers might be best.

Any advice on choir miking, SDC or LDC, any ideas for some cheap mics that would work well, (under $200 for the set hopefully)

[Audiop]

Line Audio CM3!

It has similar polar pattern as Schoeps MK21.

I have matched pairs of:

Earthworks QTC1
Sennheiser MKH8020
Sennheiser MKH8040

and also a pair of CM3 and I'm picking up
one more pair of CM3's next week.

Not involved with Line Audio but these mic's are full pro quality at
an insaneously good price.

I also have acess to AKG C1000S and Audio Technica AT 4033 which costs much more than CM3 but sound "broken" in comparison with more noise.


/Peter

[DeeDrive]

Hey those Line audio mics look pretty sweet for the money, but where do you get them? Do they sell direct? I can't find a dealer online.

[Audiop]

Yes, and you can ask for a list of retailers also.

There are several retailers in Sweden but I don't know if there are any in US currently.


/Peter

[Corran]

Ribbon mics do something special to voices. But if you are going for cheap I assume you don't have a pair of really nice pres to use with them (you need a ton of gain for soft choirs).

In my experience without ribbons, SDCs are a little too harsh with choir. I just recorded a full choir with organ with a pair of LDCs and was blown away. I wanted to use my stereo ribbon but the AC in the church was blowing and I was afraid to put that up.

The pair of LDCs I used were Oktava 219s with the Joly PE mod. I think the stock 219s would be pretty good even without the mods. They can be found on ebay for about $100 per mic.

Also you might find this thread useful:
What mics do you use on choirs?

[erosconpollo]

Originally Posted by Corran

The pair of LDCs I used were Oktava 219s with the Joly PE mod. I think the stock 219s would be pretty good even without the mods. They can be found on ebay for about $100 per mic.

A few years back I recorded a choir with a pair of stock Oktava 319s -- the 'best' mikes I had at the time -- and the results were surprisingly good. I wouldn't hesitate to point them at a choir again, if need be.

[Heartfelt]

Funny, i was put on the spot about micing a choir yesterday. It was about the size you are speaking of but the mic selection of that church is very meager. I opened the case and found a couple of lower end Shure PGM's or something that look like fat SM81's. I put two up, adjusted for feedback and there it was.

It wasn't spectacular but neither did it hinder the performance. I think they are $100 mics.
Rob

[jbjoubaud]

I was going to say Oktavamod possibly MK-012 with the omni caps as they are great for this kind of job... I saw those posts about the 219s and 319 and these seams very nice too.

[NorseHorse]

Try picking up a used pair of AT4040s.

I've attached a choir recording I did today. I chose an AT4040 ORTF pair over a Schoeps CMTS 501 in blumlein because the placement sounded smoother and more open.

[ignore--->] Another plus for the 4040s on choir is that they have a transformer in them (unlike the 4033 or 4050). That means it's output is about 6db hotter than most of my other condensers. (EDIT: 4040 is actually transformerless too. Thanks to LX3 for the correction a few posts down!) This is awesome if you don't have really nice pres because you get a stronger signal right off the bat, meaning you can you less preamp.

PS. mp3 compression is so poor for choirs.
PPS. I've heard some good choral samples with those Octavas.
PPPS. Placement, placement, placement.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Try picking up a used pair of AT4040s.

I've attached a choir recording I did today. I chose an AT4040 ORTF pair over a Schoeps CMTS 501 in blumlein because the placement sounded smoother and more open.

Another plus for the 4040s on choir is that they have a transformer in them (unlike the 4033 or 4050). That means it's output is about 6db hotter than most of my other condensers. This is awesome if you don't have really nice pres because you get a stronger signal right off the bat, meaning you can you less preamp.

PS. mp3 compression is so poor for choirs.
PPS. I've heard some good choral samples with those Octavas.
PPPS. Placement, placement, placement.

out of curiosity what type of preamps did you use for that clip?

sounds good btw

[KeithMoonwannabe]

how cheaply do you wanna go?

Rode NT5 pair, a Rode NT4, Oktava MK012, SM81, AT4040, AT4041, ST77, Bluebird would probably be good places to look for starters. Most are relatively cheap new and can be found quite commonly used for good deals.

An oktavamod ultimate MXL604 (or you could sub CAD GXL1200 or APEX 185).

[brle]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Line Audio CM3!

It has similar polar pattern as Schoeps MK21.

I have matched pairs of:

Earthworks QTC1
Sennheiser MKH8020
Sennheiser MKH8040

and also a pair of CM3 and I'm picking up
one more pair of CM3's next week.

Not involved with Line Audio but these mic's are full pro quality at
an insaneously good price.

I also have acess to AKG C1000S and Audio Technica AT 4033 which costs much more than CM3 but sound "broken" in comparison with more noise.


/Peter

Hi!
So, are they well matched those CM3´s from your experience?

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Try picking up a used pair of AT4040s.

I've attached a choir recording I did today. I chose an AT4040 ORTF pair over a Schoeps CMTS 501 in blumlein because the placement sounded smoother and more open.

I enjoyed your sample very, very much!
Thanks!

Sascha

[Audiop]

Hi Sascha!

I have not investigated that close but according to the manufacturer he applies close matching and trimming and reject capsules that are out of range.

The noise figures seem to be correct compared to MKH and QTC1 (in between those) and I have also measured noise, bandwith + distortion of the 8MP preamp and measured performance matches the published numbers very tightly.


/Peter

[Soundhunter]

Rode NT5 Pair or Sontronics St1-s pair with optional Omni capsules, add a Superlux MA-200 heavy duty stand and you're in business

Steve

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

out of curiosity what type of preamps did you use for that clip?

I used Grace preamps.

I've also had success with ART DPS II in the same room (it can help thin the reverb out, but in this instance, the reverb was welcome). The Grace gives me flexibility in what mics I use, but if I were using the DPS, you can bet the 4040s would have been my first choice because of their hot output.

Here is the room I recorded in: Virtual Tour of the Wren Chapel

The choir was in the pews and the Schoeps was right where the Point-Of-View is. I placed the ORTF up in the balcony in front of the organ.

FUN FACT: This session (also a rehearsal for an uncoming concert) actually started without me present! The choir wasn't there yet, so I set my things up, established levels using some educated guessing, hit Record, and then went to finish setting up for a wind symphony recording a few blocks away. When I'd returned, they'd already done two songs.

[Carotte]

Rent! Why spending money on a So So pair to upgrade your rig when you can probably get a pair of schoeps or DPA for like 100$ a day... You'll get your client to work with you again for sure if you do so! Cheers!

[klaukholm]

can't you rent a pair of neumann M150 or M50, schoeps mk21 or mkh800?

[tINY]

Send me a PM - I'm in Hillsboro and I have a decent mic locker.

I'll rent them for Pizza and Beer or something - then you can get an idea of what you like. Choirs can be challenging.




-tINY

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by tINY

Send me a PM - I'm in Hillsboro and I have a decent mic locker.

I'll rent them for Pizza and Beer or something - then you can get an idea of what you like. Choirs can be challenging.




-tINY

I like the sound of that option

[dortola]

Originally Posted by jbjoubaud

I was going to say Oktavamod possibly MK-012 with the omni caps as they are great for this kind of job... I saw those posts about the 219s and 319 and these seams very nice too.

Hi have those Oktavas 012 modified by Michael Joly with three caps.
What cap and what stereo technique do you recommend for recording a small (17 people) choir?
Thanks!

[jnorman]

three other SDC choices you might consider:

Avantone CK-1 pair - $99 each off ebay with just the cardioid caps, or $149 each with card, omni, and hypers. i just picked up a pair of these based on joelpatterson's recommendation.

M-Audio Pulsar II pair - these are getting some good support over at taperssection.com

Karma K10 - matched pair for $99 right now.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by dortola

Hi have those Oktavas 012 modified by Michael Joly with three caps.
What cap and what stereo technique do you recommend for recording a small (17 people) choir?
Thanks!

DPA makes a nice little summary of stereo techniques here: DPA Microphones :: Stereo Techniques

Personally it would depend on the acoustics and material to be recorded. If it was in good acoustics, I'd use an A-B pair. If not good acoustics, probably ORTF.

[dortola]

Originally Posted by Corran

DPA makes a nice little summary of stereo techniques here: DPA Microphones :: Stereo Techniques

Personally it would depend on the acoustics and material to be recorded. If it was in good acoustics, I'd use an A-B pair. If not good acoustics, probably ORTF.

Thanks Bryan!
For A-B technique you use omnis, for ORTF you use cardioids, right?
Could you explain why do you use one or the other technique based on the acoustics of the room?
Regards,
Daniel

[Corran]

No problem. Yes omnis for AB and cards for ORTF. (In general, sometimes you can do other things...)

Basically your omnis are going to pick up all the room sound so if it doesn't sound good neither is the recording. The cardioids are directional so you filter out most of the room (depending on how close you get) and then you can add reverb in post if desired.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Another plus for the 4040s on choir is that they have a transformer in them (unlike the 4033 or 4050). That means it's output is about 6db hotter than most of my other condensers. This is awesome if you don't have really nice pres because you get a stronger signal right off the bat, meaning you can you less preamp.

Actually, the 4040 is electronically balanced, like the majority of mics in that price range. It's set apart from the 4033 because the 4040 is a true externally polarised condenser.

Out of the AT range, the 4047 is one of the few that has a transformer output.

Whether a mic has a transformer or not has no real bearing on the output level of a mic. It's really determined by gain of the impedance converter and output stage. Compare a 414EB with a 414B-ULS. Both transformer coupled, but quite different output levels.

(Or try the original Rode NT5 - put it on something loud and it pretty much chucks out line level! No transformer in there. I think they dialed down the gain to something more normal on the later versions. Maybe the high-output original would be great on soft choirs? ).

If anyone does happen to be looking for a pair of secondhand AT4040s, let me know. I've used mine just twice, good mics, but not really finding much application for them on loud stages.

[sonare]

Here is a nice snippet from a forthcoming CD on MSR Classics. Single SF12 and Orpheus. 12 singers.

Rich

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by LX3

Actually, the 4040 is electronically balanced...

Oh, true. I just checked the website. The AT4050 and AT4033 say "transformerless" so prominently on the mics themselves, I just figured the AT4040 had one since AT didn't put the label on. Thanks for pointing that out, as well as the helpful info.

Originally Posted by LX3

Or try the original Rode NT5 - put it on something loud and it pretty much chucks out line level! No transformer in there.

NT5s are also a great choice for getting hot levels. However, a smooth mic with a great preamp would be the best choice, but then again, I don't suppose that's done "cheaply". I sent the OP a PM to see if he's done the recording yet.

Rich, I'm digging the sample. I'd probably get stabbed by the two choral directors I've worked with recently if I got that close!

[LX3]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

NT5s are also a great choice for getting hot levels. However, a smooth mic with a great preamp would be the best choice

Totally agree. Although I've never done a proper A-B against anything else, I always get the feeling that the NT5 is a bit lifeless when used at a distance. OTOH, I think it sounds good on things up close. You just might need some XLR pads handy.

I know a couple of engineers love the NT5 for classical, so maybe I haven't given it enough of a chance.

I should read the thread more closely, but I don't recall how cheap the OP needed the mics to be. Staying out of the Schoeps/DPA/Neumann price range, the Beyer MC930s are getting a lot of love these days - I sense there's a lot of mileage to be had out of that model. There's also (news flash) a revised version of the AT4051a (the BP4051 I think) just introduced by Audio Technica. Good to see, for a year or so I was worried that AT were going to drop their "serious" mics altogether. The 40-series SDCs (4051/53/49) have never disappointed.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

I'd probably get stabbed by the two choral directors I've worked with recently if I got that close!

If they are larger groups I would not dream of being at this distance (10-12ft)-- but there are few things more tiring to the brain than the "choir in the murky mists." It obliterates text but IS very effective at covering choral shortcomings. Small groups demand a more intimate sound IMHO. If the venue were more reverberant I would guess your killer choral directors might just like it, though (hello Altiverb).

For the REALLY curious there is a pic of the setup on my website.

Rich

[sonare]

Originally Posted by sonare

For the REALLY curious there is a pic of the setup on my website.

And for the really lazy here it is--

Rich