PLEASE HELP - Advice on Live FOH gig!

[elarreal]

Hello fellow slutzs,

I come to you all for advice on a situation that has risen in past few days.

Background:

I'm a studio engineer that has some experience doing live sound in smaller venues with smaller analog consoles (Mackie and similar consoles mostly).

I have been a studio engineer for the past 7 years; I've worked with major recording artists and this artist in particular, who i just finished recording an album for, has brought up the possibility of an opening for FOH eng. or monitoring eng. for the upcoming tour. I feel more comfortable with FOH and I am definitely interested in pursuing this......

My question is:

Am I taking too far of a leap between the studio world and the live world?

I'm confident I can figure out the majority of the technical aspects of the job (I consider myself a tech geek), but need some hands-on experience so I can get to know all intrinsic little details of running a successful show. i.e Being up to date on the standard tools of the trade like large format digital consoles, etc.

Am I underestimating the learning curve for the standard tools in the current live engineering industry?

What are the standard large format digital consoles used today?

Where can I find good information like tutorials, manuals, books, classes?

Ideally, I'd like to find someone I can hook-up with that owns or has access to this kind of gear.

I'd be willing to pay for some intesive practice sessions to get me up to speed.

I take into consideration that this very subjective and unique to each person's ability, but I would appreciate opinions that would help me gauge the situation.

Thanks

[jude]

Good choice on wanting FOH over monitors! monitors means heaps of extra mixes, that in some ways have to be better than FOH.

"standard" digital desks vary in size and complexity in setup, but if you get in good with the system techs they will be more than happy to show you around whatever desk is at FOH on the night... unless they are ******s, and that does happen

as a studio guy you know where and when to use gates & comps. for the most part this will work in a live situation. without hearing the band i cant give hard and fast rules on what goes where, however for a typical rock / metal / punk gig with multiple acts playing i usually set up as follows.

Gates on all the drums, except over heads
comps on kk, sn, and sometimes overheads
comps on bass Di & mic
electric guitars rarely get anything
compression on acoustic guitars
compression on vocals

and of course a really nice (for live sound) compressor over the mix. rather than inserting it, i run it in line after a dual 31 band EQ.

hope this helps,
Jude

PS. you can never be too nice to the local crew! they can get you out of all sorts of trouble , or get you in to it

[admench]

Lots of questions...

I too started in the studio world and now make a large part of my earnings from touring. I actually mix monitors- but I'm sure I can be of help.
1. It is a big jump from studio to stage- I think that you ought to be careful with taking a major recording artist out to venues without a great deal of experience. Now the experience you have sounds like you could do it- but I am sure that some things will take you more time to grasp, especially if/when you have some tight soundchecks where there is a lot of pressure. My advice to you is to get out there now, with an engineer who is mixing the same size stages as you will be and brush up on tuning systems, and just being in the venues when they are empty and you have a lot of reflections to deal with. I know that you will be in a situation certainly in the early stages where the artist may lose their patience with you- and a couple of shows experience under your belt could go a long way to avoiding this.

With the large format digital consoles- you can most likely go on some free training days- I did with Digico, but learned Yamaha on the road. It really does help to be able to set up soft patches, routing for subs, infills etc. and doing it quickly.

With digital desks, there are a lot of layers which can sometimes slow workflow down in a live situation- maybe you should stick to analogue- MIDAS XL3 / XL4 / H3000 or similar is a better sounding desk than the digital stuff.

Standard digi desks in the UK are Digico D5 / Live etc, Yamaha M7CL / PM5D, Digidesign Show .

Speak to the manufacturers and find out where there are classes available- if not the bigger PA firms in the US will be able to help you out- I know they do in the Uk (SSE for example).

Like I say though, get in touch with engineers working for artists on the same label as the one you're working with, just be nice and surely they will let you on board.

Adam Mench

[Roland]

The biggest issues with live sound as against studio sound engineering are things like teching the rig (adjusting the sound system to itself and the venue). Gain Before Feedback, and the practical issues that live sound faces against what you may or may not be used to in the studio.

Don't underestimate the system teching side of a pa gig, this alone makes the largest difference, well teched rig with a bad engineer on it can sound passable, badly teched rig will always sound bad regardless of who is in front of it.

Someone above mentioned gates on almost all the drums, I personally dissagree. Sometimes there is no choice, i.e. badly tunned drums (particularly toms/BD), but I would say I have done many more shows without gates than with. Compressors are usefull, very usefull, often on drums, bass, vocals etc, though you have to watch the level of compression and the ratio's used, it's not like the studio where you can wind it on for particular effects. Microphone choice also is a big issue, particularly things like vocal mics, there is a much narrower choice than you would be used to in a recording session and practical issues must be addressed or things will get very bad, very quickly.

As for consoles, pretty much all major acts are working digital these days. There are several advantages, reset and recall capabilities, patching, effects, gates and compressors on every channel, even plugins. Yammaha are a big player, pretty much every hire company has PM5's or M7cl's, good stock in trade console which is relatively easy to get to grips with and use. The Digico's have a reputation for good sound quality and are loaded with their own proprietry effects processing. New players such as Soundcraft and A&H are breaking in, Digidesign have made huge inroads with their Venue system (think protools with plugin's for live) and have an impressive roster of artists taking them out on the road. I dissagree with the poster above that say's digital consoles are not as good as analogue consoles, the feature set's of digital desks alow you to do things that would be impossible (or near to impossible) with an analogue desk. I've used Midas, SSL, Neve etc. and own a Digidesign Venue, I never find myself wishing I was using an old analogue console. As always YMMV.

I would see if you can arrange (particularly for the first few shows) to have an experienced "old hand" work the show with you. PA has it's own specifics in how you need to approach it and experience really does count.

Good luck!


Roland

[studjo]

all good points here. All I wanna ad is: LEARN TO WORK FAST - I mean - ****ING FAST - you got it? - FAST




Jo

PS: doing some small gigs in advance might give you an idea what is going to be expected

[bishopthomas]

Hey, elarreal. When is the tour? If you have time see if you can hook up with a live sound company in your area. Do the work for free if you have to and learn as much as possible in that time. Ask these questions and you'll get answers while seeing/hearing it happen.

Are they taking a monitor engineer as well? I'm looking to pick up a tour as I've been off the road for a few months. Seriously, PM me if they need that spot filled. I also do backline tech. Take me with you and I'll help smooth your transition from studio to live.

[elarreal]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the great responses , this is why I love this forum!

I feel I have better picture of what to expect now. All of you guys gave some great advice!

I really do appreciate the time you guys have taken to write it.

Last night after I posted this I had realized I had totally missed the DIGIDESIGN VENUE.

I feel that being such a studio guy I could feel a little more comfortable with the venue system since it is made by digidesign and judging from the videos on their website they have the same pro tools kind of ergonomics if you will.

Also I would find my self more comfortable using TDM plugins that I know well !

Is it cool to go all plugs and no hardware processors (minus maybe the mix comp as suggested above) ?


I think another plus is the fact that I could do multitrack recordings of the shows, which is something the artist was thinkimg about doing anyway.

Do you guys agree that maybe the Venue system will feel more at home for me?



Thanks

[Roland]

The Venue system is great, but due to its power it can also be a steep learning curve. To start it isn't too bad, but t get fully to grip with it is another thing. With all it's power and flexibility you need to get your head round it. Although the plugin's are the same (TDM style only) as ones available on Pro-tools I would say that the rest has nothing in common with pro-tools. A good starting point would be to go on the Digidesign website and view the Venue Webinars. There is something close to 7 hours worth of these and they would make a good basic starting point.

I would also try to get some pre-show rehearsal time with the desk before going out on the road, or at least have someone who's experienced on the system, as with all digital consoles it is easy to fire it up and find that there is no audio to front of house, easy to fix when you are familiar with the system, you could also spend an hour tracking it down without knowing the kit.

Good luck!


Roland

[strewnshank]

Man, I'd be very cautious about taking on the FOH responsibly for a Major Label Artist if you don't have any experience with the size rig you'll be running. Are you gonna be the head engineer on the tour? If so, you'll need to be versed in a lot of electrical, and acoustical knowledge as well. You'll need to have a good handel on wireless technology too, since a big show can be running a bunch of WL mics and IEM's as well. Nothing about the Venue (or any console) will feel "at home" if you aren't familiar with the other gear in the rest of the rig.

I certainly don't mean any offense by this, but there are crew members on tours who could step in for the FOH or monitor guy without the blink of an eye. No amount of reading or studying can replace experience. Maybe you should get some experience setting up these rigs with touring pro's before you take the helm yourself....just a though! Good luck!

[jeremyglover]

you can also contact the venues prior to the tour so you know which console you will be working on. the house guy should stand next to you the whole night to help you out if you get into any trouble...

i would go for it. it can be a great way to make a living.

[Roland]

Man, I'd be very cautious about taking on the FOH responsibly for a Major Label Artist if you don't have any experience with the size rig you'll be running. Are you gonna be the head engineer on the tour? If so, you'll need to be versed in a lot of electrical, and acoustical knowledge as well. You'll need to have a good handel on wireless technology too, since a big show can be running a bunch of WL mics and IEM's as well. Nothing about the Venue (or any console) will feel "at home" if you aren't familiar with the other gear in the rest of the rig.

Often band engineers don't have to have all this kind of knowledge, often they end up doing little more than pushing the faders. Certainly on bigger shows there will be at least one system engineer and often rig hires will have someone to "babysit" as much as anything to protect their gear (and their reputation).

I certainly don't mean any offense by this, but there are crew members on tours who could step in for the FOH or monitor guy without the blink of an eye. No amount of reading or studying can replace experience. Maybe you should get some experience setting up these rigs with touring pro's before you take the helm yourself....just a though! Good luck!

This is true, and there are an awful lot of people crewing PA who know all the in's and out's, but no decent musician would ever want them mixing their sound. I know a lot of "grunts" with 20 + years live mixing, and they can certainly get up and running, but quality artists are, or should be looking for more from their live sound. Most live sound I hear these days, although it's got better with the advent of better kit, still falls into the realms of being adequate rather than good. IMHO good live sound is about being in the moment and helping the artist comunicate as clearly as possible their performance to the audience. I would rather teach a good studio engineer to do live sound than try and teach a live "soundguy" how to record and mix music.

Regards



Roland
__________________

[strewnshank]

Originally Posted by Roland

Often band engineers don't have to have all this kind of knowledge, often they end up doing little more than pushing the faders. Certainly on bigger shows there will be at least one system engineer and often rig hires will have someone to "babysit" as much as anything to protect their gear (and their reputation).

Regards



Roland
__________________

I can't argue that there will be guys on the crew that will know any and everything about the rig, but if YOU were the front of house guy, wouldn't you want to know a bit more about the system and how it works? I know I would. Clearly this dude ain't gonna be hooking up some line array's on his own. No one puts major rigs into just anybody's command. I don't know, all the FOH guys I've worked for/with were pretty technically savvy about what they were working with, from soup to nuts, including the lighting and video rigs.

[nickynicknick]

Frankly...you shouldn't do it. If you have no experience..get some...fast. Obviously if a recording act wants to take you out that means you probably have ears and that's really good.....there are however more serious battles during the day on the road than how you are actually going to mix the show. In fact that is the most pleasant, stressless part of my day...mixing...everything else is harder....getting a handle on the room, dealing with little or no time to "get a handle on the room", house rigs and house guys that are set up incorrectly (diplomacy diploma?)...OUT OF PHASE PA's, the band during souncheck, Load In/set up problems...wiring a stage quickly (as in the House Guy rewired the stage for the opening act and is too stoned to figure out the way back during a 15 min changeover), CHANGEOVER...huge.. do a bunch at a local high end club...you also have to know how to do monitors if you are an FOH guy as there will be gigs where you are the only tech present...also the biggest thing is THE ABILITY TO MAKE WHATEVER SITUATION YOU ARE GIVEN WORK OUT SO THE BAND DOESN'T EVEN KNOW THERE EVER WAS A PROBLEM ...I'm not trying to be an ass...just realistic.


What you should really do is get some road experience wher you are not required to have so much responsibility...or even offer to come out with them for week as an assitant to the FOH guy for free

[nickynicknick]

Oh and what console you are gonna use?...not that important in the grand scheme...you should advance an analogue console as it is much easier and quicker to dial in...using a digital console on a one off will add at least one hour to your day that you don't have.... if you are travelling with your own console it still takes a bunch of time to figure out what you wanna do with it...the most realistic use of a live digital console is if the band is doing full on production rehearsal in a fairly large room for a week...then I would suggest that you have enough time to get your bearings...otherwise you could be out for two weeks and still not have time in the day to sort out a digital console the way you want.

Nick

[jude]

Originally Posted by Roland

Someone above mentioned gates on almost all the drums, I personally dissagree. Sometimes there is no choice, i.e. badly tunned drums (particularly toms/BD), but I would say I have done many more shows without gates than with.

i come from a festival background, where there is often no soundcheck, and the drums are often far from tuned properly. i find gates the easiest way to get a tight punchy sounding kit in a very quick time frame.

not to mention most of the bands i mixed for like their monitors really REALLY loud. to the stage i was getting vocals, guitar and to a lesser extent bass thru some of the close miced drums. hence my reliance on gates. with festivals there is no time to trial different mic placements

but hey, thats just my $0.02

Jude

[Roland]

But if you work with good act's with well tunned drums and good players you kill the sound. I've done many shows with not so good players and not great kits too and often they also sound better without gates. The problem with gates is that even the digital desk ones take a fraction of a second to open. Nothing worse than tiggers that don't happen or are not gating out the wash. As I said before, I'm not saying that I never use them, but because of the damage they do to the sound, they are a last ditched elastiplast if all else fails for me.

Roland

[jude]

guess thats where we wil have to agree to dis-agree

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

Frankly...you shouldn't do it. If you have no experience..get some...fast. Obviously if a recording act wants to take you out that means you probably have ears and that's really good.....there are however more serious battles during the day on the road than how you are actually going to mix the show. In fact that is the most pleasant, stressless part of my day...mixing...everything else is harder....getting a handle on the room, dealing with little or no time to "get a handle on the room", house rigs and house guys that are set up incorrectly (diplomacy diploma?)...OUT OF PHASE PA's, the band during soundcheck, Load In/set up problems...wiring a stage quickly (as in the House Guy rewired the stage for the opening act and is too stoned to figure out the way back during a 15 min changeover), CHANGEOVER...huge.. do a bunch at a local high end club...you also have to know how to do monitors if you are an FOH guy as there will be gigs where you are the only tech present...also the biggest thing is THE ABILITY TO MAKE WHATEVER SITUATION YOU ARE GIVEN WORK OUT SO THE BAND DOESN'T EVEN KNOW THERE EVER WAS A PROBLEM ...I'm not trying to be an ass...just realistic.

What you should really do is get some road experience wher you are not required to have so much responsibility...or even offer to come out with them for week as an assitant to the FOH guy for free

All well said...


On large tours sometimes the setup is actually more grueling than the show. When it comes to knowing what you are doing and not only do you have to know the technical side of things but also also how to massage the work force to get done what needs to get done in a given period of time. So many decisions, so many egos, so many people to coordinate.

I worked weekends for a medium sized regional sound company and I was Director of Audio Services and Concert Sound for the local college. We did a lot of top name acts and sometimes we had to turn over the control of the system to someone who was less than knowledgeable. There was one group, who's name is the same as the most populous bug in New York, who had one of the singer's boy friends decide that he was a sound engineer although from what I witnessed he knew more about being a boy friend than he ever did about running sound. He first act after taking over the sound board (he refused any help) was to turn up all the faders on the board, and then bring up the master fader to maximum and when he got this horrendous feed back (what was he expecting) looked at me and said "there seems to be something wrong with this system" The night went down hill from there. At one point he said he could not get the reverb to work and that the board was defective and when I pointed out to him that you needed to turn up the sends including the master send and needed to bring back the signal into the board he looked at me and said "this is not the way it works". It was a large mess and the group kept blaming our equipment and the students that were helping instead of blaming their roadie boyfriend. Lots of horror stories but this one stands out.

If you are going to take over the FOH spot you have to earn your place even if you are requested/hired by the act and are touring with them. There are lots of ways the house sound crew or rental sound company can make you look good there are also a lot of ways they can make you look like you don't know what you are doing and even if they get really pissed at you can make you look like you are a complete idiot. Best to get to the top by working your way up the ladder and earn the respect of the sound crew you will be working with. A good idea is to advance the show as you are going from town to town and get to know the person(s) who you will be working with in the next couple of days and to start to win their trust and confidence in you. (you may occasionally run into an egomaniac who thinks that no one except them can run the sound system and looks at you as a threat and will be less than cooperative and may try and sabotage you to make him look super important)

One problem today is that if you are touring without sound support and you are using what is provided you maybe working on a Midas one night and on a Soundcraft 500 the next. You have to know what you are doing and you have to be so familiar with a large number of consoles and that is only going to be learned by working on them, hopefully with someone who knows what they are doing standing beside you from the get go. Digital consoles especially cam be really tricky and sometimes you are three to five menus away from what you need to get to and if you aren't knowledgeable about the inner workings of that console you can get into trouble very quickly.

I wish you only the best but....you may be biting off more than you can chew especially if this all has to be done pronto quick.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by jude

guess thats where we wil have to agree to dis-agree

I always work on gates last as it is the least important element before soundcheck and can be dialed in while the band is sounchecking...a lot of times I don't even engage the gates and even forget to patch them...I'll put it to you this way...If you can't have a good sounding show unless you have gates, then it's not a good sounding show...they are a good tool. I find that they'll help me get things cleaned up a little...but I can do any show in any size venue without them and I have...if your PA is set up/tuned well you should never have to gate a kik ...end of story.

Nick

[Remoteness]

Gates can be a crutch for some folks...

I rarely use gates and when I do it's to tighten up the mix a bit and not to save my arse.

[Roland]

Last time I used gates were on some toms on a show last year. Drummer turned up with a brand new kit, that he hadn't got to grips with the tunning of yet. It was a multiple band show, though most players were going to use the same drum kit. After the drummer applied a little tunning and gaffa to the drums I reluctantly resorted to gating the toms as there wasn't enough time to take them apart and tune them properly. I felt it was a bit of a failure on the show, they sounded fine in the mix (fortunately I was using an M7 and the gates on this are as good as any I've ever used).

I'm in agreement with both Steve and Nick, I would rather use gates to "tighten" something up, but Im a good enough engineer that I can usually get the sound without them.

Regards


Roland

[plexisys]

+1

Frankly...you shouldn't do it. If you have no experience..get some...fast.

I mixed on the road for about 15 years. While this is a broad statement, and may piss off some, but very few studio guys can transition well to live mixing.

I can't count the number of top studio engineers that showed up on tours that mixed the worst sounding or most boring mixes ever. Most were sent home after just a few shows.

At the top level of touring it's just such a different animal that until you've been there, a lot, you won't understand it.

As far as monitor mixing, don't even think about it. I've been on tours where they went through 5-6 monitor mixers in a month. These were guys who had mixed for many, many major acts and had years of experience. A studio guy probably wouldn't last through the first sound check.

If you want to mix live stuff find a local sound company and get as much experience as you can on their dollar. I don't care how much studio time you have a good live sound engineer takes years to develop.

It's also not just about mixing. Road life is a tough life even at the top of the food chain. I averaged 10-11 months a year on the road. It beats you physically and mentally every day you are gone. Few people can take the wear and tear.

I would rather teach a good studio engineer to do live sound than try and teach a live "soundguy" how to record and mix music.

Total rubbish. I've found it works the other way around.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by plexisys

+1

I mixed on the road for about 15 years. While this is a broad statement, and may piss off some, but very few studio guys can transition well to live mixing.

I can't count the number of top studio engineers that showed up on tours that mixed the worst sounding or most boring mixes ever. Most were sent home after just a few shows.

At the top level of touring it's just such a different animal that until you've been there, a lot, you won't understand it.

As far as monitor mixing, don't even think about it. I've been on tours where they went through 5-6 monitor mixers in a month. These were guys who had mixed for many, many major acts and had years of experience. A studio guy probably wouldn't last through the first sound check.

If you want to mix live stuff find a local sound company and get as much experience as you can on their dollar. I don't care how much studio time you have a good live sound engineer takes years to develop.

It's also not just about mixing. Road life is a tough life even at the top of the food chain. I averaged 10-11 months a year on the road. It beats you physically and mentally every day you are gone. Few people can take the wear and tear.



Total rubbish. I've found it works the other way around.

good stuff right there

[Roland]

Originally Posted by plexisys

+1

I mixed on the road for about 15 years. While this is a broad statement, and may piss off some, but very few studio guys can transition well to live mixing.

I can't count the number of top studio engineers that showed up on tours that mixed the worst sounding or most boring mixes ever. Most were sent home after just a few shows.

At the top level of touring it's just such a different animal that until you've been there, a lot, you won't understand it.

As far as monitor mixing, don't even think about it. I've been on tours where they went through 5-6 monitor mixers in a month. These were guys who had mixed for many, many major acts and had years of experience. A studio guy probably wouldn't last through the first sound check.

If you want to mix live stuff find a local sound company and get as much experience as you can on their dollar. I don't care how much studio time you have a good live sound engineer takes years to develop.

It's also not just about mixing. Road life is a tough life even at the top of the food chain. I averaged 10-11 months a year on the road. It beats you physically and mentally every day you are gone. Few people can take the wear and tear.



Total rubbish. I've found it works the other way around.

I can think of many notable studio guys that do mix live, particularly with the way the gear has gone now, sure you are entitled to your opinion about it, but these guys do the gigs. Quite frankly I can't think of any notable studio engineers that started live then transitioned to the studio.

I personally started recording 30 years ago and live sound 28 years ago. Generally live sound has improved imeasurably over the last 15-20 years and I hear a lot of pretty good quality sound. My biggest complaint against most live gigs I see is poor musical balance. There are plenty of live sound engineers that have no musical background at all, this is very rare in the studio. There are many live sound gigs where the FOH engineer got the gig because they were mates with the band and nothing to do with their engineering pedigree, this is still happening today. As for monitor mixes, don't even go there, I still hear far too many on stage monitor mixes that are appalling, mainly from a lack of musical understanding of what artists need.

Live sound is about working quickly in the moment, most studio engineers suffer from working too slow on the road and lack of familiarity with standard tour kit, this is easier to teach.


Roland

[plexisys]

Quite frankly I can't think of any notable studio engineers that started live then transitioned to the studio.

Without even thinking I can think of several dozen. Max Norman is a start.

There are plenty of live sound engineers that have no musical background at all, this is very rare in the studio.

Total nonsense and a complete misstatement. Just as in the studio most touring guys are in to playing music. I have a degree in Music. I did one tour in which two of the sound crew were alumni of the same University's music department.

There are many live sound gigs where the FOH engineer got the gig because they were mates with the band and nothing to do with their engineering pedigree, this is still happening today.

That happens in almost any business. It rarely occurs at the top of the touring business.

As for monitor mixes, don't even go there, I still hear far too many on stage monitor mixes that are appalling, mainly from a lack of musical understanding of what artists need.

Sounds like someone didn't know what they were doing.

Live sound is about working quickly in the moment, most studio engineers suffer from working too slow on the road and lack of familiarity with standard tour kit, this is easier to teach.

While it is about working quickly, it's also about learning to work in any acoustical environment. It's about learning everything starting at a 400 Amp 3 phase power box to the final sound out of the bins.

I've seen studio guys piss in their pants just trying figure out simple things like gain structure let alone how do you handle a guitar player whose 35 db louder than the rest of the band. There's no second chance. It's real world, real time. I also offer that there are no shortage of times that it's the band that sucks not the sound crew. Unlike the studio, you don't have hours, days or weeks and a bank vault of gear to polish the turd.

The guy on the road has dealt with 100s if not 1000s of variables everyday, he doesn't sit in the same place, at the same gear, day in and day out. He has to know more to do his job. He also has to have a very strong work ethic. Something that is very ofter missing in some studios.

I'll accept some of your statements for small bands playing bars and such, but not for major touring acts. If I was going to train a person I'd rather have someone that's been on the road then someone who has sat in one studio and only knows one or two ways to do something.

Other know road slackers (all very unmusical guys who got their job because they were sleeping with the band):
Bruce Jackson - Apogee
Mick Whelan - Crown
Ted Leamy - JBL
Bob Scoville - Digidesign
Tom Schlum - Neve, GML, Air Studios and CBS

[bishopthomas]

I think the disagreement in this thread stems from personal experience and size/quality of the production that you're involved in. Whether the original poster is playing small clubs with "what you get" systems or arena shows with strict riders really makes a difference here.

In the club scene you really have to be able to adapt to the environment. One day may be a decent PA and digital console, the next might be Eons and a Eurodesk. These are the gigs where the quality of the house guys are completely hit or miss. They may or may not be able to patch the stage correctly, and sometimes don't even bother to help do it at all.

If you are doing larger venues you will have less problems. Despite what people are telling you here. The crews are usually decent because there's more competition. You walk in, explain what you need before soundcheck, they help you accomplish that goal. Then you soundcheck, spike and mark the stage, leave for a while, come back to reset and mix the show, then you leave. That's your day. There's no tying in to 3-phase power. If that is necessary then there will be someone there to do it. The portable PA's will have crew to set them up. That's not why you're there.

I think you'll do fine. There are some basic items to take with you on the road that can save the gig in those small crappy clubs. Prepare for anything that can happen and make the band sound good by pressing buttons and turning knobs.

[plexisys]

You walk in, explain what you need before soundcheck, they help you accomplish that goal. Then you soundcheck, spike and mark the stage, leave for a while, come back to reset and mix the show, then you leave. That's your day. There's no tying in to 3-phase power. If that is necessary then there will be someone there to do it. The portable PA's will have crew to set them up. That's not why you're there.

There are very few "brief case" guys in the business. If they are at that level they still started out humping gear and learning everything. Usually the only guys that just walk in are for opening acts.

Even when I was in the brief case mode I'd still go in at load in and tell the crew exactly how I wanted the system stacked and how I wanted the system to cover the venue. I also tuned my own rig everyday. You just can't leave it on yesterdays eq.

I think we are really talking about two different levels of touring and studio sound here. At the lower end of either you will get hit and miss ability and professionalism at the top end you hopefully get the best at what they do.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by plexisys

There are very few "brief case" guys in the business. If they are at that level they still started out humping gear and learning everything. Usually the only guys that just walk in are for opening acts.

I guess I'm one of the lucky few then. And yes, I started out humping gear and still do it when I'm not on the road. But I don't necessarily think that it is required to be able to pin a line array or tie in to a panel in order to be a band engineer. Of course I am glad I have that experience, but never once as a BE have I broken out Ease Focus and the laser tape in order to get the splay angles of a line array.

Originally Posted by plexisys

I think we are really talking about two different levels of touring and studio sound here. At the lower end of either you will get hit and miss ability and professionalism at the top end you hopefully get the best at what they do.

I completely agree and that was the whole point of my post. The original poster said "major recording artist" so we can only assume that these would be larger shows where people actually know what they're doing. And obviously, when you work with a good crew it's just as simple as the daily ritual that I outlined above.

[memphisindie]

Did you say you were the main act or the opener?
I've worked for major label openers, it's a different horse than the main act and the politics are very different. You gotta be in two places at once as an opener. You might get "the crappy board" if you're the opener, be prepared to make it work.
I try to bring my own techs or at least have one guy I can work with on stage, if only to make sure the snake and mics are patched correctly, if they can bring up the gtr rigs, key rigs, and tune and set up drums check monitors, you're ahead. Bring 2way radios.
Also, is it a big stadium tour mostly outdoor arenas or is it indoors and sheds?
There is a difference there too. Bigger is better in my book.
If you get a Midas, use the whole damn thing, they also have a new digital board out.
Digico D5 is like Protools so the curve won't be so bad. Once you get one explained you'll love'em, flexible. Yamaha has a couple of digital boards out, Soundcraft too, I hear they all sound fine, but, don't all have the number of screens the digico has, soundcraft does "I think" I haven't used one of them yet.

Here's the biggest question you should ask yourself:
How long does it take me to do a final mix?

If it's longer than 10 to 30 minutes from note 1 of soundcheck, you'll need a knowledgable friend.
Oh, with the digico, once you get your settings done, you can store your show on the usb key and take it with you. Whenever you start, just insert it and load it and voila it's all back. THAT will save a lot of time.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

I guess I'm one of the lucky few then. And yes, I started out humping gear and still do it when I'm not on the road. But I don't necessarily think that it is required to be able to pin a line array or tie in to a panel in order to be a band engineer. Of course I am glad I have that experience, but never once as a BE have I broken out Ease Focus and the laser tape in order to get the splay angles of a line array.

Yeah, that's the"company tech's job", not the band's soundguy. I would break out the stuff on a company if i thought they'd screwed it up though. I usually check the entire rig though. I'm a prick on tour, unless it's all been done right. If I'm working for a company I still check the entire rig. I don't know how many times I've rolled up and the local company didn't have the right tails to reach the distro.

I completely agree and that was the whole point of my post. The original poster said "major recording artist" so we can only assume that these would be larger shows where people actually know what they're doing. And obviously, when you work with a good crew it's just as simple as the daily ritual that I outlined above.

I love it when it comes together well. Doesn't usually happen for the opener. I've seen guys cut half the pa. Still, I miss touring.