PLEASE HELP - Advice on Live FOH gig!

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

If the vocal is number one, it doesn't do anything against it to start with the drums if you get through the check to finish. You should have a solid sound for the band established by end of check to back down from the main vox if necessary, if the venue works, you won't be dialing in the band during the show.
Starting with the vox is risky IMO, mainly because of time constraints and you could hurt the vox ego or confidence which could get you fired. Plus, the vox usually have to fit in sonic context with the band.
None of that should be an issue if you do enough preproduction with them to get all the programming finished and saved.

Yes, Nick, a bunch of Alpha somethings.

I'm talking about small rooms where the venue doesn't work. I would get the vox as high as I can without feedback then back off to a normal level. Then the rest of the mix is dialed in like normal and the fact that the vocal level has already been established has nothing to do with it. It actually makes sound check faster because if you run into feedback or schreechy vocals at the end of soundcheck then you pretty much have to start over. Another advantage is in the case where you have too loud stage volume and a guitar player or somebody doesn't want to turn down. If they see that the vocals cant get above them then it helps me make my case.
It isn't the normal way of dialing in but it does have it's place.
I've never had any objection when I ask to do it this way because I tell them why.
Every venue is different. Every band is different. There are no rules.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

Let's clarify....tuning the rig to your voice and checking the vocals first at souncheck are two different things...and FTR after I've tuned the rig the way I want and am satisfied that it's in good shape..I'll basically follow the monitor guy and GTR Tech around ....while they're checking their stuff...I'm line checking mine...When they're done all I really need is a good 10 -15 mins with the drums and I'm usually pretty good...unless it's my tour with our consoles then it could be even less...maybe I'll take 5 mins to get that bass the way I want too...that leaves plenty of time while the band soundchecks to have a sandwich...kidding...to have a walk around solo things, check how the room is reacting to the subs...get your bearings...but I do spend a good 20 mins checking the rig ...if soemthing needs attention obviously it takes longer.....generally i need a half hour of me time before soundcheck at the console...throw in a digital console and that triples...so i guess in all my ramblings I'm saying that drums are a priority for soundcheck, but I may hear the vox or whatever else the monitor guy is working on first...but when I call for something...it's always KIK first

Firstly I would love it if a rig could be teched out in 20-30 mins, but it would take almost that amount of time to smaart the system if you are taking a reasonable number of measurements throughout the room to check your coverage properly, more if you have to re-focus/move boxes and change amp settings. You still have to run some audio and walk the venue to do a final "happy with that" check.

I can't understand why your "me" time triples with a digital console? With a digital console you just recall your show file and start your tweaks balance wise. With the Venue it's even easier, all you have to do is call up a previous days Pro-tools file and use that for your audio walk, a couple of touches for balance verbs etc and you should be good to go.

As for spending time on drum sounds, I do the line check, check the drums are not sounding too far off from where they should be, same with the other instruments and vocals then I get the band to play and listen. What's the point of pratting around with a drum sound until you hear it in context with the other instruments. On a live gig, like in the studio, the vocal and the song is what is key, everything sound wise is there to put the song across, I don't care if you have the most slamin' drum sound ever heard, if it doesn't serve the song or the players it's a waste of time. Go listen to the Beatles, Mowtown artists, Paul Simon all great artists, what's a drum sound got to do with their stuff? Having been present at soundchecks with guys spending 30 minutes or more on a bloody bass drum sound, only to have it sounding average or, even worse, nothing like the player playing it.


Roland

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

I'm talking about small rooms where the venue doesn't work. I would get the vox as high as I can without feedback then back off to a normal level. Then the rest of the mix is dialed in like normal and the fact that the vocal level has already been established has nothing to do with it. It actually makes sound check faster because if you run into feedback or schreechy vocals at the end of soundcheck then you pretty much have to start over. Another advantage is in the case where you have too loud stage volume and a guitar player or somebody doesn't want to turn down. If they see that the vocals cant get above them then it helps me make my case.
It isn't the normal way of dialing in but it does have it's place.
I've never had any objection when I ask to do it this way because I tell them why.
Every venue is different. Every band is different. There are no rules.

Small rooms are always a new challenge, each one has so many "oddnesses" happening in them, it can take time when they don't work, like the slap off the back wall at the Wilkes Barre civic center, it's louder coming back than when it went out. Makes the singer look at you like this:.
You do have to do some weird and tricky stuff in the small rooms. When it comes together it's all worthwhile.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Roland

Firstly I would love it if a rig could be teched out in 20-30 mins, but it would take almost that amount of time to smaart the system if you are taking a reasonable number of measurements throughout the room to check your coverage properly, more if you have to re-focus/move boxes and change amp settings. You still have to run some audio and walk the venue to do a final "happy with that" check.

I can't understand why your "me" time triples with a digital console? With a digital console you just recall your show file and start your tweaks balance wise. With the Venue it's even easier, all you have to do is call up a previous days Pro-tools file and use that for your audio walk, a couple of touches for balance verbs etc and you should be good to go.

As for spending time on drum sounds, I do the line check, check the drums are not sounding too far off from where they should be, same with the other instruments and vocals then I get the band to play and listen. What's the point of pratting around with a drum sound until you hear it in context with the other instruments. On a live gig, like in the studio, the vocal and the song is what is key, everything sound wise is there to put the song across, I don't care if you have the most slamin' drum sound ever heard, if it doesn't serve the song or the players it's a waste of time. Go listen to the Beatles, Mowtown artists, Paul Simon all great artists, what's a drum sound got to do with their stuff? Having been present at soundchecks with guys spending 30 minutes or more on a bloody bass drum sound, only to have it sounding average or, even worse, nothing like the player playing it.


Roland

Roland...please don't put words in my mouth...


I didn't say tech a system in 20 min...I said when I get to it (being the FOH guy for the band) that's what I need to tune it the way I want..anyway without picking at eachother...there are many reasons a guy would spend 30 minutes on a kik drum (which i don't usually) a bad reason is thinking that it is important enough to spend 30 mins...a good reason is if something is up with the subs and your trying to figure it out..

telling me that vocals are important is preaching to the choir buddy...I live it...and BTW you should try a pair of Avs over two vocal groups with all the vox assigned there...you'd be surprised...I'm not a huge Avalon fan, but there they work well.

what I do agree with is that a live mix should be musical and not all kik drum...i've done my time thinking too much about the kik...it's normal, but eventually you have to move on from that thinking or move over...


and finally...of course a digital console can be recalled if you are travelling with one. I was talking about having to dial one in from scratch...let's face it most FOH guys are doing all kinds of one offs...most aren't touring sheds and rinks with their own consoles

Peace Roland...we agree more than dis I think

Nick

[jude]

Originally Posted by Roland

I don't care if you have the most slamin' drum sound ever heard, if it doesn't serve the song or the players it's a waste of time. Go listen to the Beatles,


Roland

hmm, not sure they play together much these days, and we are talking about live sound arnt we? and we are ment to be answering a question arnt we?

shall i sum it up for the origional poster....

probably not a good idea to take on a major label artist as a FOH engineer.
man i thought i got grilled by saying i use gates on live drum kits, but hey i dont really care if studio engineers, or some live engineers dont use them. i can get a great sound, quickly. which leaves time for a bit of rest before mixing a show.

as for the pissing contest this has turned into. really, i thought you guys on here would be better than the folk in studio central forums when it comes to getting along. if this thread is anything to go by, well lets just end it there before i say something i'll regret

[plexisys]

The ENTIRE drum kit normally represents the widest frequency spectrum that will be consistently used, the greatest dynamic range, largest amount of transients and the largest amount of leakage in a live show.

By using the drum kit first you have it as the reference point for the entire system/mix. It also helps you to determine the full room response, standing waves and the nature of the rooms reverb, A voice is really not adequate for fully tuning the system. Is it important to have the voice out front in the mix, absolutely, but it is a very poor instrument for tuning an entire system.

[plexisys]

man i thought i got grilled by saying i use gates on live drum kits

If it's the right tool at the right time noting wrong with that. I've used them at times when needed.

[memphisindie]

I must say it guys, it hasn't been said yet, it has to be busted out of the box because you know it's true:

Even if you're with a major label band, if you aren't the main act,

YOU DON'T GET A SOUNDCHECK!

You get a line check if you're lucky, bub.

If you think you can survive that well, go for it.
I hope the band knows this too.

Q's:
Are you the main act, who is the label, are they really a major, are you getting your own console to mix on or are you line sharing, if you are the main act, will you get a provision for the opener to use a separate console?

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

I must say it guys, it hasn't been said yet, it has to be busted out of the box because you know it's true:

Even if you're with a major label band, if you aren't the main act,

YOU DON'T GET A SOUNDCHECK!

You get a line check if you're lucky, bub.

If you think you can survive that well, go for it.
I hope the band knows this too.

Q's:
Are you the main act, who is the label, are they really a major, are you getting your own console to mix on or are you line sharing, if you are the main act, will you get a provision for the opener to use a separate console?

Yes Memphis! and that is the reality of most FOH guys..it's not usually an ideal situation/environment your working with...that's why you have to develop a good system and be able to work under stressful conditions..that's why getting to know digital consoles is way way down on the list of priorities for an up and coming FOH guy/gal...

good point Memphis

Nick

[plexisys]

Even if you're with a major label band, if you aren't the main act, YOU DON'T GET A SOUNDCHECK! You get a line check if you're lucky, bub.

More true than not.

Some opening acts don't make it any easier, some do. I remember Todd Rundgren as an opening act. They did everything via DI including the drums. 10 lines and 3 vocal mics. They even had the snake to plug in the stage box. Took about 5-10 minutes to setup. They got a sound check every show. Loved those guys as an opening act. Nice guys too. Then there was this Roboto band (whose name I will not mention) that had something like 40 lines, more frigin monitor sends then brains, and it took them forever to get their gear on stage. They never seemed to get a sound check or maybe 10 minutes worth before doors open.

[Roland]

I would suggest that it is imperative to learn digital consoles these days, almost all the major sound hire companies (at least here in England) are slowly, but surely outing their analogue desks. This shouldn't be a problem if engineers (or sound hire companies) have decent festival patches on the console or memory stick, kind of gives you a pretty good starting point even coming in cold.

Regards


Roland

[locosoundman]

I don't have a dog in this fight, nor am I a touring FOH engineer, but I would say that it is imperative to learn your way around as many of the digital boards as you can for any up-and-comer.

Let's face it - if you can work one large format analogue console, you can find your way around any other fairly quickly (just watch those knobs - I remember one board that shall remain nameless that had a gain knob where most normal human beings would put a pan knob - "let's put the congas over to the right a little - REEEENNG" - I digress).

However, navigating all of the menus on digital consoles and having to deal with the endlessly flexible routing can be a bit overwhelming to the uninitiated. Add to that the fact that every digital board has its own proprietary convoluted scheme of organization which does not translate from one board to another - just finding what you need to find can be a headache at times.

On the other hand, snapshots are the best thing since sliced bread.

Being someone who learned on analogue boards, when I use a digital console I still catch myself looking at the screen too much, rather than watching the stage. Maybe it's just me...

[jude]

Originally Posted by locosoundman

(just watch those knobs - I remember one board that shall remain nameless that had a gain knob where most normal human beings would put a pan knob - "let's put the congas over to the right a little - REEEENNG" - I digress).
...

that would be the yamaha PM X000 consoles hey?

[studjo]

or the Gamble