Recording live audio while being filmed

[Lee]

Hi, this may seem like a silly question and it's probably been asked before, but, I'm going to be going and recording a live show soon and I was wondering if I needed to sync to video? This event will be filmed. I feel like it wouldn't necessarily need to be, but I've never done it before. The sessions I've gotten in the past for these live events have just been mixed and bounced out of the PT session and sent off to the video company without problem. I've just never recorded one of them.

Any help is appreciated!

[bishopthomas]

What does the mix engineer or video company say? That's really what's important.

[jimdrake]

hey, two rules apply:

#1 all gear must be locked to the same clock
#2 all gear must record the same timecode

how i normally works:

the video crew have all their gear locked to a master clock generator. the video crew take a spare output of their clock generator and give it to the audio crew. the audio crew takes this clock signal (normally black and burst) and then locks all their gear to it. i like using the rosendahl nanosync because it will accept any incoming clock signal and output all the different types of clock signals that different audio gear needs (wordclock etc).

the video crew have a master timecode generator which runs at time-of-day (ie. it reads the same as your watch) this timecode generator will be locked to the master clock generator. again, the video guys give the audio guys a feed and they make sure everything gets the timecode ok.

of course there is no reason why the audio guys can't provide clock or code, it just normally happens this way.

always make sure you have a discussion with a tech guy from the video crew to make sure you know what frame rate and timecode etc they're using so you can make sure that all your gear is seeing the correct thing.

of course some video crews don't care about sync and some may even stare blankly if you ask about the subject. if they don't care about sync then nor do it, it won't be my job to sort it out in post. BUT make sure you raise it as an issue and make sure they tell you that they're definitely ok with it. you don't want to do a bodge recording and then get a phone call the next week asking why nothing will lock up in post. if you find yourself in that position then you need to be able to say that it wasn't your fault.

i don't know why i'm even writing this, nobody cares about sync anymore......

[Lee]

haha thanks jim.

I do care, and I will contact them. I've just noticed that we kick out mixes and they sync them to video, but I don't see how they could be using any sort of sync from the mixes to do that.

[thedoner]

Jim's explanation is excellent, and mirrors my own experience. I've done a few jobs as multitrack audio support for video. Some required a common clock and SMPTE time code (LTC), and some did not.
Generally, the bigger the gig, and the more "high end" the production, the greater the likelihood of your need to be clocked and locked. If this is the case, you should come prepared to generate both clock and SMPTE, unless you know for an absolute fact that the video crew is going to be the master. If possible, you should also be prepared to send a stereo mix of the audio (in real time) to the video crew.
On the other side of the coin, if it's a lower budget production and there's no sync, there are a couple of different things to consider: First, make sure you talk to the camera guys and make sure they are recording nice clean (undistorted) audio with their built in mics. Sometimes they can be so focused on what they're shooting, that they don't think about their audio at all...and clean audio from the cameras will make the post guy's job MUCH easier when lining up your mix.
Second, to the same end, With everyone rolling, try to have the performers, MC or whoever...to get some sort of slate, clap, stick clicks etc (Something percussive) at the front of the performance.
The easier it is to line things up, the better you'll look!
Can you give us some more details about the gig/your gear etc?
Best of luck!
-GD

[Audiop]

Are here any decent videocameras ($1k-$10k range) that can either sync to wordclock from a typical audio interface or that can put out a wordclock sync to the AD/interface?

I have started to think about covering small acts in my area and see if there's any interest in that for local TV-channels and "web-TV".

I would like to go small but high quality and add video to my high quality 8-channel audio-rig.


/Peter

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by jimdrake

.... master cock generator......

Very interesting ............. what is it?

[Audiop]

*LOL*


/Peter

[thedoner]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Are here any decent videocameras ($1k-$10k range) that can either sync to wordclock from a typical audio interface or that can put out a wordclock sync to the AD/interface?

/Peter

Yes, in the 10k range.
Here are a couple:

JVC | GY-HD250U Professional HDV Camcorder | GYHD250U | B&H

Canon | XL-H1 3-CCD High Definition Camcorder Kit | B&H Photo

Originally Posted by John Willett

Master cock generator

Don't we have enough of those already?

[Audiop]

Thank you thedoner!

Can those camcorders function as either slave or master clockwise?

I have a Lynx Aurora 8 and it would be neat if I could use it as master.


/Peter

[jimdrake]

Originally Posted by Lee

I've just noticed that we kick out mixes and they sync them to video, but I don't see how they could be using any sort of sync from the mixes to do that.

Hey, they will probably be just be lining up the stuff by eye.

either:

a) getting round sync issues with fiddly editing

or

b) ignoring the issue

or

c) being blissfully unaware of any issue

[jimdrake]

Originally Posted by thedoner

Jim's explanation is excellent, and mirrors my own experience. I've done a few jobs as multitrack audio support for video. Some required a common clock and SMPTE time code (LTC), and some did not.

hey,

ALL jobs require proper sync, some just don't bother.

Generally, the bigger the gig, and the more "high end" the production, the greater the likelihood of your need to be clocked and locked.

no, just how clued up the crew are. you get no-budget gigs recorded properly in sync. you get big-budget productions where the crew are idiots and don't sync the recording gear properly.

If this is the case, you should come prepared to generate both clock and SMPTE, unless you know for an absolute fact that the video crew is going to be the master.

i would always bring master clock and timecode generators.

i like the nanosync. it takes incoming clock and then distributes it to my gear. if incoming clock is lost when someone pulls the wrong cable, the nanosync keeps rolling and my recording gear doesn't complain. this acts as a buffer between me and the video crew, when everything is OK i am locked properly, if something goes wrong i still have functional clock distro.

same goes for timecode. you can use a timecode generator which will jam-sync to incoming code. it will take a sniff of incoming code but then run on internal. this can then distribute code to all my gear and, same as for clock, act as a buffer between me and the rest of the world.

of course, if needed my clock and code generators can be used as master for everyone.

If possible, you should also be prepared to send a stereo mix of the audio (in real time) to the video crew.

all recordings should always include a monitor mix on a spare couple of tracks, of course also available if anyone wants it during the shoot.

[jimdrake]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Very interesting ............. what is it?

oops fixed !

[Lee]

Thanks guys, all very helpful.

The gig was cancelled for the time being. But it will happen again and since I've never done this before I have some questions.

The production company handling the video will be the master for sync. They will also be getting a 2-Channel mix off the console. (I assume they mean the live console since I will not really have a console)

My question is, with a sync i/o and a few 192's how does it work together? I'm assuming they'd be using T/C so do I just take their T/C into the sync? Come out of the sync into the in the first 192 out of their into the in of the next 192 and so on? Then I put the transport in PT online?

Thanks guys, you're all awesome!

[thedoner]

Originally Posted by Lee

Thanks guys, all very helpful.

The gig was cancelled for the time being. But it will happen again and since I've never done this before I have some questions.

The production company handling the video will be the master for sync. They will also be getting a 2-Channel mix off the console. (I assume they mean the live console since I will not really have a console)

My question is, with a sync i/o and a few 192's how does it work together? I'm assuming they'd be using T/C so do I just take their T/C into the sync? Come out of the sync into the in the first 192 out of their into the in of the next 192 and so on? Then I put the transport in PT online?

Thanks guys, you're all awesome!

Hey Lee,

Insist that the video crew will provide you with feeds for both clock and time code. Although you can derive a clock signal from SMPTE time code, it is rarely as stable as a separate clock feed!

The time code feed is simple, just connect it to SMPTE IN of the Sync I/O (XLR)

The clock will likely be 48k Black burst. Connect this feed to VIDEO REF. (BNC) on the Sync I/O.

Now the fun part...You can daisy chain clock for one interface to the next, but, 192 's are designed to run in LOOP SYNC mode with the Sync I/O. I don't own 192's (Apogee here) but I believe the way this works is by connecting LOOP SYNC (LS) out of the SYNC I/O, to LS IN of the first 192. Then take LS OUT to LS IN of the next 192. Repeat this for each successive 192 in your system. Then finally, connect the LS OUT of the last 192 back into the LS IN of the Sync I/O.

Open PT session setup window (Command + 2 on Mac). Set you clock source to VIDEO REFERENCE and make sure your system is locked and resolved.
Set your positional reference to LTC ( I've found LTC 4 - "Smoothest" to work best for me)

As mentioned earlier, make sure sure you session is created at the correct sample rate (again, probably 48k), and that you time code rate matches that of the video crews (probably 24ndf).
Put PT on line and you should be ready to rock & roll
Good luck,
-GD

[KevinNYC]

This friday May 1st I will be performing in Harlem. I'm bringing a protools rig to take direct outs from the console, a zoom H2 in the audience for some ambience, and 3 HD prosumer Camcorders. aside from all machines set to the same bit and sample rates, nothing will be synced. I'm hoping to mix the audio in Logic then align the mix with the edited footage in final cut. Should be an interesting experiment. I'll keep you guys posted...

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by KevinNYC

This friday May 1st I will be performing in Harlem. I'm bringing a protools rig to take direct outs from the console, a zoom H2 in the audience for some ambience, and 3 HD prosumer Camcorders. aside from all machines set to the same bit and sample rates, nothing will be synced. I'm hoping to mix the audio in Logic then align the mix with the edited footage in final cut. Should be an interesting experiment. I'll keep you guys posted...

I do this fairly often at work. What I generally do is get a rough alignment of all the tracks (accurate within a frame), and a rough edit in Final Cut, then export an OMF to Logic for mixing and sub-frame alignments. From Logic, I export a 2-track mix back to FCP where I do the final edit of the video.

For the most part, its pretty easy, but there are a couple things to watch out for:
*Minimize the number of times you stop and start the camera & PT. Recording a concert this probably isn't much of a problem. The fewer breaks in the recording, the easier it is to line up later.
*Audio waveform drawing in Final Cut (which you need to align everything) seriously blows. It'll choke your system. Only leave it turned on as little as possible.

-Dan.

[KevinNYC]

Thanks Dan... all systems will remain on and recording throughout, so once I line everything up once I should be cool. Tx for the tips!


K