Direct to Stereo

[gareth.h.rees]

Just wondering if anyone really records direct to stereo these days?

I'm thinking rock/jazz bands - multiple mics through a desk.

Its a skill I want to work on as I really enjoy live broadcasting.

What mixers do people use - it seems that there isn't too much around that's a portable size but good quality... its either small and cheap or big and expensive!

Not that I have the money for small and expensive...

Just thinking out loud really, thought I'd see what you guys do!

Cheers
Gareth

[BenFranske]

We do an annual rock/pop show with 48-52 channels which has been recorded direct to stereo for years. Most recently we've been doing it with Yamaha DM2000 and M7CL48 boards, a skilled recording engineer and an assistant. The primary motivation in doing a direct to stereo mix has been that a multicamera live video recording was taking place at the same time. Another consideration was finding a budget for mixing it down later.

Starting this year though we'll be multitracking instead. We've finally got all the bits and pieces we should need to do it as well as found a budget location to draw money from for mixdown. Depending on how we like the end result we may or may not make the switch permanent.

[fifthcircle]

Yup.... Everything I do is mixed to stereo- I may have a multitrack master sometimes, but it is approached the same way.

Just did a big gig on Friday for a local radio station. Recorded James Morrison's band before he went out to Coachella to start his tour. Had a full group including multiple keyboards, a horn section, BGV, etc... Fun stuff and a very good band.

Anyways, when I do radio work, it is live to stereo. The multitrack is a backup for what I have to get done in my live mix. To do this, I will route my direct outputs pre-everything to the multitrack so it doesn't matter what I'm doing in the mix. If I need to remix, I have everything clean.

For gear- I was mixing on an O1V96 to try to keep things under control. I brought 22 channels of mic pres and I brought in a 16 channel A-D to expand the console to 32 inputs. I used the outboard pres and converters for all of the "important" stuff. A few of the DIs, line sources and Audience mics went through the console's electronics.

I've attached my patch list- it is adapted from the Band's list that was provided to me. Oh, and if you wonder why I used a Lavry converter with the A2D, it is because I found out that morning that the digital ouptuts on my unit mute when sync'd to an external clock. Oops! That shouldn't have made it off the assembly line.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Oops! That shouldn't have made it off the assembly line.

--Ben

Nice feature!

[Daniel Stark]

One interesting unit is the Universal Audio DCS. It's a 2 channel mixer with some cool features.

I actually use mine as a 4 input mixer by running (hot) mics directly into the cue inputs and making up the gain later on.....Not really typical but works OK and lets me mix 4 channels remotely.

[hrn]

Why not try two good preamp channels and a pair of great microphones and place them right. You can record a symphony orchestra with a pair of microphones. Use a Korg MR-1000 as the recorder. You could even try the built in preamps in if you're lazy. They are good enough for many things.

Hans

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by hrn

Why not try two good preamp channels and a pair of great microphones and place them right. You can record a symphony orchestra with a pair of microphones. Use a Korg MR-1000 as the recorder. You could even try the built in preamps in if you're lazy. They are good enough for many things.

Hans

I generally record more 'bands' than orchestras, so would need more than two microphones. I do plan on getting a decent stereo pair and two good preamp channels though

I was mainly just wondering how people go about recording/mixing stuff when all they have to work with are two tracks and not much room for error . Just thought it would make interesting reading

Cheers
Gareth

[letsdance]

hey gareth,
i have been using 2 track recording as an income for many years.

a few tings.
note that a great sounding live mix, you make will not nessisarally sound that good mixed down to stereo

ideally you need to use two aux outs to create that seperate stereo mix..if possible using a different person to help you

recording and mixing (in my opinion ) cannot be done properly with only 1 set of eyes ears hands..

i always use a compressor just before the recording device...compact wise i find the RNC great. particually in super nice mode when recording classical/choral music

a lot of clients on a budget often go with the stereo mix...just master and happy daze...

its also a good backup..because ya never know

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by letsdance

hey gareth,
i have been using 2 track recording as an income for many years.

a few tings.
note that a great sounding live mix, you make will not nessisarally sound that good mixed down to stereo

ideally you need to use two aux outs to create that seperate stereo mix..if possible using a different person to help you

recording and mixing (in my opinion ) cannot be done properly with only 1 set of eyes ears hands..

i always use a compressor just before the recording device...compact wise i find the RNC great. particually in super nice mode when recording classical/choral music

a lot of clients on a budget often go with the stereo mix...just master and happy daze...

its also a good backup..because ya never know

Budget was what I had in mind - If I can learn to get it right straight to tape then that saves a lot of time, which means it should cost less!
I also want to work in broadcast, like doing sound for live TV/Radio stuff, so going straight to stereo would be mandatory!

Regarding the mixer, I didn't mean using the output from the PA. I was just thinking aloud about mixers that would be good for recording (exclusively) down to a stereo recorder.

I was thinking about mixing to a compressor, the RNC as it happens! Probably another trick that gets you that much closer to a final product without having to do too much after the recording?

Cheers!
G

[Teddy Ray]

My favorite mixer is the Wendt X4/X5

Wendt X4 4-Channel Mixer

When I first started recording, I recorded everything through that wendt mixed down to 2 track. the wendt has amazing features, very portable, battery powered, and the mic preamps are nice and open. I really enjoy working that way, no safety net, just one's raw talent and hearing ability to get good results!

A friend of mine is building a mixer customized for me, should be done before too long.

Originally Posted by gareth.h.rees

Budget was what I had in mind - If I can learn to get it right straight to tape then that saves a lot of time, which means it should cost less!
I also want to work in broadcast, like doing sound for live TV/Radio stuff, so going straight to stereo would be mandatory!

Regarding the mixer, I didn't mean using the output from the PA. I was just thinking aloud about mixers that would be good for recording (exclusively) down to a stereo recorder.

I was thinking about mixing to a compressor, the RNC as it happens! Probably another trick that gets you that much closer to a final product without having to do too much after the recording?

Cheers!
G

[gareth.h.rees]

Looks awesome - bet its expensive though!

4 channels is a little too limited for what I've got in mind too. I'm thinking between 8 and 16.

Anyone do much recording/mixing with this number of tracks down to a stereo mix for live feeds/recording?

Be interesting hearing how you manage the gig!

[JohnReeve]

LAst summer I mixed a bunch of live-to-two-track shows at a festival.

We used the Yamaha o1v96 to mix and a DAW for the recorder.

I am shopping for o1v96, as I think it seem like the ideal thing at a good pricepoint.

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by JohnReeve

LAst summer I mixed a bunch of live-to-two-track shows at a festival.

We used the Yamaha o1v96 to mix and a DAW for the recorder.

I am shopping for o1v96, as I think it seem like the ideal thing at a good pricepoint.

Indeed, I think a digital desk would be good for this sort of gig.

The Allen and Heath ZED series look okay too. Problem is they look a bit too 'gimmicky' to be considered somewhere near 'professional'.

[staudio]

Welcome to Chesky Records: The Premiere Audiophile Record Label

They only record directly to stereo.

[BenFranske]

Originally Posted by gareth.h.rees

Anyone do much recording/mixing with this number of tracks down to a stereo mix for live feeds/recording?

Be interesting hearing how you manage the gig!

As I've said we have routinely done 48-56 channels. What are you interested in knowing?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by staudio

Welcome to Chesky Records: The Premiere Audiophile Record Label

They only record directly to stereo.

as does

Waterlily Acoustics(the head of that label, Kavi Alexander, is a good friend of mine.

Opus 3 (Jan-Eric Persson is a genius whose work is simply stunning!)

MA Recordings they use a custom pair of mics


Yarlung (divine sound , classic mics!)

Mapleshade

..those are my favorite labels. I have no interest whatsoever in 90 percent of the major label releases. The companies above have no concerns for anything other than the sonics. not driven by marketing, sales numbers, or loudness...

A rather legendary 2 channel recording is "Jazz at the Pawnshop" as well as "cantate domino"(both on the proprius label) and Ludus Danielis on Fone records.


..anyway, sorry to rant, but people need to hear that stuff. it is amazing.

[videoteque]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

A rather legendary 2 channel recording is "Jazz at the Pawnshop"...

Yeah, I wish most live jazz recordings sounded like this one!!!!!!!

[Plush]

Check my new release mixed direct to stereo. 7 mics into Neve console and then recorded to my Nagra V. Mix it like a man.

Harmonia Mundi # 907500

[springer]

I tried mixing live jazz composers orchestra once and it turned out to be terrible. I was sitting in the same room so I couldn't get isolated enough to hear what was really going on inside the headphones. No rehearsal, just setup and go. If you are going to do this and need a great result either have a control room or rehearse and listen to playback...

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by BenFranske

As I've said we have routinely done 48-56 channels. What are you interested in knowing?

Haha I'm not that sure! I suppose if there's much that you do differently from when you're multitracking (except of course, doing the mix as you go!)

I'm basically approaching this from a 'I want to work as a broadcast engineer who mixes gigs for broadcast straight to the TV' point of view, like Reading and Glastonbury etc.

I figured that recording gigs directly to stereo (I may have the opportunity to do at least one a week next year) would be a great way to hone my skills in this type of situation.

A separate control room is pretty much out of the question, but I have had success with mixes standing next to the stage.

This was one I did around this time last year. Took feeds from the FOH guy and put them in to our mixer (Soundcraft ES) and recorded to a Minidisk recorder - just a consumer separate one. Monitored on TBone HD990's (THE T.BONE HD-990D - U.K. International Cyberstore)

Here's the recording as ripped from the minidisk: http://users.cs.cf.ac.uk/G.Rees/Misc...ino_Track4.mp3

Maybe it was a bit of blind luck - the first song was certainly a little all over the place as we didn't have much soundcheck time.

Over half of the work I've done has been recorded to stereo on headphones with the band in the room. Just figured it would be a good skill to have and was wondering if anyone else had advice, tips or tricks of the trade to share!

Cheers!
Gareth

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Plush

Check my new release mixed direct to stereo. 7 mics into Neve console and then recorded to my Nagra V. Mix it like a man.

Harmonia Mundi # 907500

Just piano and voice, yes, Sir, correct?

What were the mics and how were they set up?

[gareth.h.rees]

Also, cheers for all those example CD's.

Checking these out is definitely going to be what I'm going to be doing on summer afternoons

[ebs.audio]

I'll echo the advice for the Yamaha digital boards for this purpose. Specifically, I love the DM1000 for jobs that don't need more than 16 input channels. I generally do the record mix on the stereo bus, and send that via the 2 Track Digital outs to the recorders. Pre-fade aux sends feed the PA system and monitors. The board itself is small enough for one person to carry, and different mixes can be done on different fader banks.

About a year ago, we switched from a SADiE Artemis System to Sequoia, so now that track count isn't really an issue while editing, I'm sad to admit that the Masterlink is now the backup recorder. A Metric Halo MIO 2882 and a Powerbook running MIO Console are now handling the primary recorder responsibilities. I don't think the mixes are very different as a result, it just offers that extra "just in case" factor - call me chicken.

Granted, I'm usually working Concert Band or Orchestra concerts, so the PA system is just for concert moderators and soloists. Also, my recording mix decisions are just the balance between the main pair, flanking, and spot microphones. I wouldn't recommend trying to get a good 2 mix while also running live sound for a rock/jazz band.

Originally Posted by Plush

Mix it like a man.

I'm not sure what it says about our profession that we equate some production techniques with certain gender roles. I've certainly felt this way, however, when I've left the spot mics at home on recording sessions, or when I've run 20+ mic outdoor concerts without sound checks. I suppose it's that little bit of recklessness that keeps us on our toes.

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by ebs.audio

I'll echo the advice for the Yamaha digital boards for this purpose. Specifically, I love the DM1000 for jobs that don't need more than 16 input channels.

I wouldn't recommend trying to get a good 2 mix while also running live sound for a rock/jazz band.

Hmmm maybe I'll save my pennies for one of those then!

I won't be running live sound - just recording

Cheers!
Gareth

[BenFranske]

Well... First, I think that for rock/pop having an acoustically separate space for mixing the recording is critical. It can be done with headphones or in-ears but the result is often less than good. The fewer sources you have and more you approach it as what I would call an acoustic recording the more successful you can be with headphones or in-ears in the room. Recently we've used rooms down the hall from the main performance venue as the recording control room, brought in acoustical treatment as needed, set up with monitors and a video feed from the venue. We used to use an empty semi-truck trailer (the one the live sound reinforcement equipment came it) as a recording control room, it takes some work with draperies to make it sound decent though and you don't want to be mixing in a rainstorm.

As someone else stated you can pretty much forget about getting a very good recording mix off the live sound board, a dedicated recording board is really needed.

I like to put a compressor/limiter on the main outputs as well because things happen and you really don't want the mains to clip.

We also made sure that both the recording engineer and their assistant had seen the show several times before attempting to live mix it. In addition notes were taken about when during what pieces solos occurred and what channels were in use during each piece. In many cases we got the sheet music as well and the assistant would follow along.

In general the assistant was there to keep an eye on what channels are on, which are off what solos might be coming up and simply to provide a second set of eyes and ears. If the event is multi-night we would also try to record a couple of different nights so we could select the best recording of each piece.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

as does

Waterlily Acoustics(the head of that label, Kavi Alexander, is a good friend of mine.

Opus 3 (Jan-Eric Persson is a genius whose work is simply stunning!)

MA Recordings they use a custom pair of mics


Yarlung (divine sound , classic mics!)

Mapleshade

..those are my favorite labels. I have no interest whatsoever in 90 percent of the major label releases. The companies above have no concerns for anything other than the sonics. not driven by marketing, sales numbers, or loudness...

A rather legendary 2 channel recording is "Jazz at the Pawnshop" as well as "cantate domino"(both on the proprius label) and Ludus Danielis on Fone records.


..anyway, sorry to rant, but people need to hear that stuff. it is amazing.

+1thumbsup

that's how I started and still go for that approach when I think it serves. It definitely has it's challenges, and its rewards.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Plush

Check my new release mixed direct to stereo. 7 mics into Neve console and then recorded to my Nagra V. Mix it like a man.

Harmonia Mundi # 907500

I bought this CD because of who was singing and who produced and recorded it. It is stunning, a huge achievement all round, superbly sung and engineered. She is one of the most intelligent and moving of singers, and this recording captures it all and produces the goose bumps.

When the geese appear you know you have nailed it.

[Ozpeter]

In the days when I was recording CDs regularly (mainly on the now defunct Olympia label) I only had the means to record direct to stereo, but these days I can't see the advantage in doing so unless time is too tight to revisit the balance in post production. I would at least have a mulitrack backup.

Having said that I don't recall ever wishing I'd had a multitrack version after a stereo-direct recording. The biggest hazard as I recall it was contending with far from perfect monitoring environments in the vestries of churches etc - I tended to rely on headphones more than would be considered advisable, but took along some relevant CDs to tune my ears to a good balance before recording.

I'm surprised that Amazon still have (rather mangled) samples on line of some of mine, eg
Amazon.com: Mozart: Complete Horn Concertos: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Roy Goodman, Herman Jeuissen, Herman Jeurissen, Giorgio Mereu: Music
or Amazon.com: Tartini: Violin Concertos, Vol. 1: Giuseppe Tartini, Arie Van Beek, Auvergne Orchestra, Gordan Nikolic: Music
- though those Mozart Horn Concertos did have one bit of cheating where the "voice of Mozart" - an actor - was recorded and mixed in afterwards at the producer's apartment (final track on the CD). The manuscript of the Horn Concertos has obscene commentary by Mozart written above the staves, and to ensure the completeness of this CD, the producer had an actor declaim the remarks through the relevant movement, though a 'normal' version of the movement also appeared on the CD.

These recordings would have been stereo pair plus up to four spots - not more as I didn't own more than 6 channels of preamplification!

[BenFranske]

There seem to be a lot of well intentioned but misguided posts in this thread so I'd like to clarify something just so we're all on the same page. The original poster was asking specifically about recording rock/pop music direct to stereo. IMHO that is both incredibly different and incredibly more difficult that recording largely acoustic music direct to stereo. We're not talking about 5-6 channels we're talking about stages where 32-48 channels would be easy to come up with. This is an entirely different kind of recording.

For example:
Drum set - nominally 7 channels (kick, snare, hat, toms, floor tom, 2 overheads)
Keyboard/synth - 2 channels
Piano - 2 channels
E. Gtr #1
E. Gtr #2
A. Gtr #1
A. Gtr #2
E. Bass
2 Trumpets
2 Trombones
3 Sax
2 Violins
Cello
Upright Bass
8 Vocals
2 Stereo Pairs of audience mics

While the comments about recording a stereo pair and a couple of outriggers and maybe some spot mics are appreciated it's really a different ballgame. I don't want to stomp on anyone's feet but the relevant posts here seem to be in the minority.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

I bought this CD because of who was singing and who produced and recorded it. It is stunning, a huge achievement all round, superbly sung and engineered. She is one of the most intelligent and moving of singers, and this recording captures it all and produces the goose bumps.

When the geese appear you know you have nailed it.

this is why it would be great to see how it was recorded... always great to see how amazing records are made.