Main Mics - Cards, Omnis, Blumlein, other?

[jnorman]

Which do you prefer for your main pair -

1. Cardioid mics (XY, ORTF, NOS, DIN),
2. omnis (spaced pair, decca tree),
3. M/S,
4. mixture of cards and omnis,
5. Blumlein?

Why?

Thanks.

[BrianHanke]

My first choice is spaced omnis. I record only classical stuff and I aim to get an uncolored sound with a lot of presence. I also usually prefer close-micing and I don't like having to deal with the proximity effect and somewhat more focused, thinner sound of cardioids.

[BLP]

I'm a A/B pair of omni's guy, myself (speaking of classical, of course). I find the low end which omni mics provide, as well as the nice sense of spaciousness make them the go-to for most sessions. This imaging is also nice (when placed properly), but without some of the overly-detailed information provided by coincident or near-coincident pairs. In general, I find omni's to be the most flattering main pair. On the other hand, when dealing with a less-than-ideal space, I sometimes go for a subcard A/B to limit the bad room sound I may be getting.

[summer_room]

I usualy prefer the precise imaging of blumlein over AB, and I also usualy prefer the lush sound of ribbons over condensers.

I enjoy AB when I do not want precise imaging, and also when I want extended low register (organ).

My experience comes from working with Royer SF12, Neumann USM69i, DPA 4006 and Neumann M149.

Best - Jon

[Plush]

I was once asked by a famous Dutch engineer if I used a "real" microphone. I replied that yes, I did. I used an omni microphone. Unless it's not really a music recording room and then I use a "substitute real microphone." That would be a cardioid microphone.

Recently I had the pleasure to work with the famous producer/engineer Max Wilcox of RCA fame. He too called for us to use "real" microphones.

Keep it real.

[mathieujm]

I record mostly concerts in non ideal places, so for me the best

compromise is ORTF.

I have used omnis with Jecklin disk. Sometimes it was superb, but not often...

JMM

[hughesmr]

It always depends on the circumstances. If the room is really bad, it's best to try to minimize the detriment by using directional mics. But yeah, given a good space, my first choice is always to break out the omnis.

[matyas]

Plush, do you also prefer omnis for outriggers (if you use them at all)? What about spots? What's you're preferred spacing for the main omni pair?

Originally Posted by Plush

I was once asked by a famous Dutch engineer if I used a "real" microphone. I replied that yes, I did. I used an omni microphone. Unless it's not really a music recording room and then I use a "substitute real microphone." That would be a cardioid microphone.

Recently I had the pleasure to work with the famous producer/engineer Max Wilcox of RCA fame. He too called for us to use "real" microphones.

Keep it real.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by matyas

Plush, do you also prefer omnis for outriggers (if you use them at all)? What about spots? What's you're preferred spacing for the main omni pair?

I am using omnis for outriggers on orch. Sometimes I will use cardioid mics for outriggers on choral recordings. Generally it is the Neumann M50 that is chosen for outriggers. The new MKH 8020 is also a credible mic. One could choose the venerable B&K 4006 as well.
However, the M50 is the best by quite a wide margin of preference.

Width of spacing for main pair varies as does the distance of the main pair from the first stands of strings. I usually start with around 28" and could go out to 3 or 4 feet. The omnis are at about 9.5 ft. high off the stage and about 2 feet out from the front of the string stands. They are pointing left and right at about a 35 degree angle. These are starting points. Most people starting out are surprised to see the omni mics at not too high a height over the strings.

You can also try wide cardioid as a main pair---spacing would be wider with these.

For places that one can't use an omni well, I put up the Schoeps MSTC 64 ORTF stereo mic.

Spots are mostly cardioid or wide cardioid. Violin soloists get a ribbon mic or a wide cardioid. Cello playas always get a ribbon mic spot. Bass section always gets omni mics for spot coverage. Horns get ribbon mics for spot coverage. The sound on the RT. side of the trombone section bombing into the M50 from their perch in the back row is the best sound in orchestral recording according to me.

[John Willett]

For me it depends on the room and the piece.

For many years my mainstay was an MS pair of MKH 30/40.

I always use omnis on piano, normally MKH 20, but my last project was done with KM 183-D and the next will probably be with MKH 8020.

I have used a Jecklin disk and did a recent project with that with MKH 20 - but last week I used a Schneider disk with KM 183-D.

I have done a few sessions with an ORTF pair and plan to try some with ORTF + Omni outriggers soon.

I haven't tried NOS yet, but am thinking of it.

[matyas]

Great info, thanks! So do you like to do the classic Decca tree plus outriggers, with five M50s?

Stuff like this is why I love this site.

Originally Posted by Plush

I am using omnis for outriggers on orch. Sometimes I will use cardioid mics for outriggers on choral recordings. Generally it is the Neumann M50 that is chosen for outriggers. The new MKH 8020 is also a credible mic. One could choose the venerable B&K 4006 as well.
However, the M50 is the best by quite a wide margin of preference.

Width of spacing for main pair varies as does the distance of the main pair from the first stands of strings. I usually start with around 28" and could go out to 3 or 4 feet. The omnis are at about 9.5 ft. high off the stage and about 2 feet out from the front of the string stands. They are pointing left and right at about a 35 degree angle. These are starting points. Most people starting out are surprised to see the omni mics at not too high a height over the strings.

You can also try wide cardioid as a main pair---spacing would be wider with these.

For places that one can't use an omni well, I put up the Schoeps MSTC 64 ORTF stereo mic.

Spots are mostly cardioid or wide cardioid. Violin soloists get a ribbon mic or a wide cardioid. Cello playas always get a ribbon mic spot. Bass section always gets omni mics for spot coverage. Horns get ribbon mics for spot coverage. The sound on the RT. side of the trombone section bombing into the M50 from their perch in the back row is the best sound in orchestral recording according to me.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by matyas

Plush, do you also prefer omnis for outriggers (if you use them at all)? What about spots? What's you're preferred spacing for the main omni pair?

No Decca tree for me here, Mr. Matyas. Just a center pair of omnis. Usually Schoeps or even Senn. MKH 800. Sometimes the hall is not good enough to support omni mics as the main pair. The omni main pair shows off too many flaws in the acoustic if the room is not good. Then revert to cardioid.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Plush

No Decca tree for me here, Mr. Matyas. Just a center pair of omnis. Usually Schoeps or even Senn. MKH 800. Sometimes the hall is not good enough to support omni mics as the main pair. The omni main pair shows off too many flaws in the acoustic if the room is not good. Then revert to cardioid.

I am a hack.


but here in the USA I have shifted to recording Small Choral groups, "Chamber" Jazz and The occasional appalachian/bluegrass group.

If acoustics will allow it, I go for Blumlein every single time or OSS.

If they do not allow it, it is ORTF normally or some variant. NOS has worked really well too.

Blumlein reigns supreme for me if it is able to be used.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

If acoustics will allow it, I go for Blumlein every single time or OSS.

If they do not allow it, it is ORTF normally or some variant. NOS has worked really well too.

Just curious ... why would they NOT allow Blumlein or OSS but WOULD allow ORTF? (Unless they have an aversion to Jecklin discs...?)

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

Just curious ... why would they NOT allow Blumlein or OSS but WOULD allow ORTF? (Unless they have an aversion to Jecklin discs...?)

I said if *acoustics* would not allow it.

[88man]

Plush wrote:

Recently I had the pleasure to work with the famous producer/engineer Max Wilcox of RCA fame. He too called for us to use "real" microphones.

Indeed, Max Wilcox was a legend not only at RCA but in the recording industry of yesteryear! He was very knowledgeable about sound. We had a close family friend who recorded the amazing Saint-Saens Organ Concerto under Mr. Wilcox at RCA. What a glorious sound! The recording went on to be considered as one of the top 50 classical recordings of all time by the New York Times.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

I said if *acoustics* would not allow it.

Oops ... missed that, sorry!

[MaTr1x2051]

It really depends on the space and sound source. I would never use only spaced omnis... I personally feel the stereo image isn't quite right. I regularly use an ORTF pair with omni outriggers, even for just a solo instrument. That being said, some instruments in certain spaces sound terrible with omnis. Other instruments in the same space might sound great with omnis.

I have never had a problem capturing the 'right' amount of bass with ORTF, so I'm never afriad of using it; even on pianos and orchestras. The halls that I usually work in aren't the greatest acoustic, so occassions where omnis really sound great are few and far between. But its definitely a pleasure when they work

[Remoteness]

For your consideration: I added a poll with the OP's question and options.

[fifthcircle]

I use whatever works for the given ensemble and room. It really depends on the circumstances as to how I record. It may be ORTF, it may be blumlein, it may be a decca tree with outriggers. The mic setup has to serve the music.

--Ben

[edbro]

Having very limited experience with orchestral recordings , I'm still experimenting with different set ups. That being said, lately I have put up an MS, Blumlein, and otrf main with omni outriggers and cardiod spots to an HD24. I then go home and pick which set up worked best. Lately its been the Blumlein ribbons. I know its inefficient, but I can only learn so much from reading here and I need more "ears on" experience to learn the how for what I think I know. The why or why not is usually found reading these great threads! Thanks.

[boojum]

This is kind of a loaded question, like "What is your favorite golf club?" It really depends upon the situation.

If I am in a bad room with a small group and no time to set up: MS

If I am in a bad to so-so room with time to set up: Williams array of a pair of cards. Possibly the three card array he describes which I am finding pretty nice but not yet finished evaluating.

If I have a good room and the time I go for the spaced omnis, again a la Williams [not wider than 40cm], and cards for the soloist(s) as a close pair or as a MS if there is more than one soloist and they are close. A bunch of separate and concurrent soloists would be paired to a card each in string of cards.

I know so little about this that I stick to cookbook solutions. Perhaps in time I can try more techniques. I really should. The widely spaced omnis with a Williams ORTF-like array in the middle is worth a try, too.

[Nobilmente]

I sometimes use a Decca Tree for things if the acoustics are suitable. In this case I'm afraid there are no M50's involved but I use TLM170's (usually in omni) as outriggers, and the Tree part with a forward TLM170 and a pair of Schoeps Mk5's in omni as the L&R on the Tree.

I generally use the Decca Tree on larger ensembles, such as orchestra and wind band (wind orchestra).

Brass bands (of which I seem to record quite a few) I generally use ORTF (occasionally NOS) and depending on the reverberation, either point them toward the ensemble, or slightly overhead in a horizontal fashion, recording slightly on the side of the pattern. Over the basses I try to get omni's in on the scene if the acoustics will allow, and leave some of the percussion at the back to make their own arrangements and come over on these, mainly side drum and bass drum. I spot mike glockenspiel, xylophone, vibraphone etc and put a cardiod high over the timps. If I can catch a few instruments on the same spot, I'm pleased.

I have not yet tried ORTF with flanking spaced omnis, but it seems to make sense to me, and my next recording will have the main pair set up as ORTF with omnis flanking. It's a room in which I've recorded ORTF before, and I think the additional omnis will work well. I can use them or not at will if they are there.

I felt that the Decca Tree did not offer very much to the last brass band recording I did, but I've not ruled it out for future use, if the acoustic is just right. I like the impact that good definition brings on brass band recordings and I didn't feel I had the control I would have liked with the Tree on that particular recording and in that room.

For some small chamber groups, where the size of the ensemble allows I really like Blumlein, as it has good definition and spaciousness that I crave, all in the one set up. Quite often though ensembles are too wide, which makes the placement too far away for any sense of "seeing the whites of their eyes". I do like to hear the whites of their eyes at times.

Now, I've written all that, but why anyone should be interested in what I do is another question!!!!