Help Needed Getting Rid of Piano Hammer Sound

[gfmp]

Hi, I'm new here. Thanks for reading about my issue. Essentially, I'm using Logic Studio 8 to mix, and I'm trying to get rid of a hammer sound that is attached to a recording of a piano's upper treble keys. Can someone please give me an idea as to how to reduce the noise of the hammers while keeping the sound of the strings? Also, what is the correct way to avoid getting this sound recorded in the future?

The hammer sounds like a thud and so the frequency I assume is fairly low and therefore distinct from the notes being played. Would something like a high pass filter be a solution? I've tried that but it doesn't seem to work yet.

Thanks

[Sonic Lush]

hey I think this is a great question. I would like to learn more about it also.

I record quarterly concerts at a hall, and depending on the piano's maintenance cycle---it can get pretty spotty and noisy.

For one concert the piano (a mid-sized Samick grand) was lush and quiet, and sounded gorgeous.

Over the next several concerts, the hammer and rubbing noise, almost like a guiro when a certain pedal is pushed became really annoying. And for the low strings, there was a rattle on certain chords, as if paper had been inserted for a prepared piano piece.

Not so good when not intending the Ruth buzzy rattle sound.

We have decided to insist that they (the hall) service, or at least tune the piano before our rental. Given the rental fee and deposit, it does seem fair.

Getting to your question, I'm not yet very partial to doing serious corrective eq to a stereo track to remove these kinds of artifacts.

I am also using Logic 8, and while I've found the eq to be decent for my needs, I try to use it judiciously, at best.

To my ears it alters the sound unfavorably when removing hammer noise and other mechanical oddities.

In these instances, the piano noises don't sufficiently irritate the client.
They don't really seem to mind.

However, it drives me crazy. short trip. within walking distance, apparently.

Hopefully, some here with knowledge will weigh in.

best,
walt

[klaukholm]

Sounds like a job for Cedar.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Sounds like a job for Cedar.

They do a bureau service in the UK so you don't have to buy the software or hardware - send them the file and they'll do it for you.

[klaukholm]

Thats great!
I did not know that was an option.
They must surely take business from abroad as well, so there is the solution.
What is their pricing scheme?

[Dale]

the easiest way is to not record the sound in the first place.
how were you micing the performance?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Thats great!
I did not know that was an option.
They must surely take business from abroad as well, so there is the solution.
What is their pricing scheme?

The Cedar website is HERE.

PDF of the price list is Here.

But it's probably best to give them a call and discuss it - they will be able to give an estimate of how much it's likely to cost.

I have only ever heard excellent reports about the service.

[idylldon]

Although you describe it as being in the treble section, it sounds to me like you could be hearing more damper noise than hammer noise. This, of course, depends on what the player is doing with his/her left hand and whether or not he's pedaling at the time. The "thud" could be the damper mechanism returning to the rest position. Some players have a REAL problem with pedaling, which never ceases to amaze me.

The sound of the hammers hitting the strings is more of a higher-pitched, percussive sound than what you're describing. Damper noise is a lower-pitched, rhythmic kind of sound, and can either be almost non-existent or really apparent depending on the player's pedal technique and the setup on the piano. Since there are no hammers past G6 in a regular grand (there isn't enough energy/sustain in the strings past that point to warrant damping), perhaps you are hearing some distinct hammer/action noise there. Without a sound sample, though, it's hard to tell.

To avoid it in the future, get the mics away from the hammers. For some styles of music it might be appropriate, but for many it's not.

Just some thoughts that may or may not be relevant to your situation. Hope they help.

Sonic Lush wrote:

In these instances, the piano noises don't sufficiently irritate the client.
They don't really seem to mind.

However, it drives me crazy. short trip. within walking distance, apparently.

I absolutely agree with this and find my clients (most of which are monster classical players) aren't bothered by it at all; in fact, they expect to hear the mechanics of the piano because that's the way they hear it when they're playing. Like Sonic, though, I find the extraneous noises irritating and I tend to fixate on them once I hear them!

Cheers,
--
Don

[Hammer Mark]

I've never dealt with this problem, but (if it really is hammer noise) I think transient designer might be able to fix it since the noise would define the transient of each note. If it's damper noise, you're probably stuck with it.

[Remoteness]

Can you upload a sample of this recording for our review?
It may help us determine the perfect remedy for your noise problem.

[fallforward]

Yeah this definitely sounds like a case of a heavy footed piano player on the damper pedal. I have a few different wood blocks that I use to put under the damper pedal that will stop the player from depressing the damper as far, which means that you will get less thud when the dampers land on the strings. The reason I have a few different ones is that pianos vary, and some are on casters, or a moving cart so they are higher up. Just get a few blocks and find the one that allows the hammers to lift all the way off without the player having to press the pedal all the way down. I also have a little swatch of felt that I put on top of the block so that the pedal doesn't knock when it hits it.

[Sonic Lush]

Originally Posted by fallforward

Yeah this definitely sounds like a case of a heavy footed piano player on the damper pedal. I have a few different wood blocks that I use to put under the damper pedal that will stop the player from depressing the damper as far, which means that you will get less thud when the dampers land on the strings. The reason I have a few different ones is that pianos vary, and some are on casters, or a moving cart so they are higher up. Just get a few blocks and find the one that allows the hammers to lift all the way off without the player having to press the pedal all the way down. I also have a little swatch of felt that I put on top of the block so that the pedal doesn't knock when it hits it.

that is pure gold,
thanks for the tip!!

[The MPCist]

Originally Posted by idylldon

Although you describe it as being in the treble section, it sounds to me like you could be hearing more damper noise than hammer noise. This, of course, depends on what the player is doing with his/her left hand and whether or not he's pedaling at the time. The "thud" could be the damper mechanism returning to the rest position. Some players have a REAL problem with pedaling, which never ceases to amaze me.

If you play a badly maintained piano, you'll find that this is very correct. The damper mechanism does 'thud' when you let go suddenly.

Some people step on/off the pedals like they were driving a manual transmission on a Ferrari! LOL

[ARUNOVICE143]

Originally Posted by gfmp

Hi, I'm new here. Thanks for reading about my issue. Essentially, I'm using Logic Studio 8 to mix, and I'm trying to get rid of a hammer sound that is attached to a recording of a piano's upper treble keys. Can someone please give me an idea as to how to reduce the noise of the hammers while keeping the sound of the strings? Also, what is the correct way to avoid getting this sound recorded in the future?

The hammer sounds like a thud and so the frequency I assume is fairly low and therefore distinct from the notes being played. Would something like a high pass filter be a solution? I've tried that but it doesn't seem to work yet.

Thanks

There are several things I would like to say in response to this. Firstly there are no correct ways to record anything. It is all based on the sound you want and the recording of that sound. So if you want less hammer in the strings well there are several options. you could re record the piano which would be better from my experience. This gives you a chance to really focus on getting a good recording in the first place. the theory is that the closer to the hammers you are the more hammer sound you will record. I know pretty obvious but still worth considering. Also mic orientation is important. try positioning your mics to the end of the piano. or closer to the strings, or try altering the orientation of the mic to face away from the hammers. You could try all three or ditch them altogether and go with something else. Thats the brill thing about this is that there is no rules on how to do it. perhaps change the mic. see if you can dig up the frequency response patterns for the mic. They are really useful when deciding position and orientation. And if the mic has interchangable polar patterns, make sure you have the right one for the sound you want. Therte is nothing stopping you from doing several recordings using different spacing and polar petterns. However if recording the piano again is out of the window in terms of options then try eq. Not ideal but if you really can't stand the hammer sound then its the best option. If possible try routing the track through an analogue eq rack unit. They produce alot better sounds than the software plugins. Similar to the recording there are several options you can do for post production. Just have the patience to play around with stuff until you get the sound you like.

Hope I helped
Jack

[TheSoundPalace]

I just finished a session and had the same problem. The piano is Yamaha Concert Grand that's only a year old and was just tuned and serviced about 45 days ago.

I went with a spaced pair of C414's and had them fairly closed miked just past the hammers, angled somewhat away from the hammers and set to cardioid. I also placed a 57 on a small towel and laid it on top of the sound board.

Then I had the U87i about 6 feet away and about 7 feet up.

When the client arrived, I had her run through the song (a little ballad) and listened in the control room. "What's that incredible thud I'm hearing during the quiet intro and outro of the song???" I go back to the piano and investigate. She's working out the damper pedal big time. All the way down and quickly all the way up. The result: the dampening hammers lift up and then crash down upon the strings.

I tried various remedies. First I asked her to go easy on the pedal. That screwed up her timing so she couldn't do it. I then suggested leaving off the sustain and I'd try adding some reverb on the appropriate regions. She couldn't do that either; robbed her of the song's feel.

I moved the microphones further away from the hammers but even the 57 laying down at the back of the soundboard was picking up the thuds. Even the U87 that as 6 feet away was hearing them.

So I wadded up some padding and grabbed some gaff tape to reduce some of the travel distance the pedal was making. Only a mild improvement.

Fresh out of ideas, I told her we'd record it and try to use an EQ filter to locate the thud and cut it from each track.

Now I'm having a hard time identifying the frequency (probably frequencies) of the pedal thud. I even put a 7-band EQ on one track and killed everything below 5k and the thud seems unaffected.

I've attached an MP3 of the thuds. Any suggestions for de-thudding it? It's only noticeable about 10 times in the song.

(p.s. I was amazed how good the 57 did just laying on a towel on the soundboard. That mic really is good for everything.)

[Yannick]

Look, I've recorded professional classical pianists who have a severe problem using the right pedal. It's not just on/off. I'd hate to take a ride in a car with one of them at the steering wheel (and pedals).

If the problem lies in the playing, I would not fix it. Anyway, this thud is broadband (20Hz to 20K) so there is no OK way to get rid of it.

Better would be to focus on violin recordings. Now there is a type of musicians which have - successfully - spent 100 years to get rid of any kind of attack

(Sorry, we just had the Queen Elisabeth competition in Belgium, and the best musician scored REALLY badly. Which makes me dislike violin players right now)

[PlugHead]

Wow. This is all great stuff to read!

IMO, pianos are often the most difficult instruments to record well. This is due to all the factors 'outside' of recording, but residing in the realm of the actual instrument, as well as the person playing it.

Pianos need maintenance. Regularly. Quite often the thudding is an improperly working damper or sustain pedal. Often it can also be the regulation of the keyboard (hammers harden and start sounding 'boinky' when contacting the strings) which totally affects the tone and capture of the instrument. Not to mention the age and condition of the strings which can often produce false harmonics, etc., etc...

Pianos can't sit idle, nor be played regularly without feeling the effects of time and aging wear on them. When recording, I have continually been disappointed with the condition of the instruments in the rooms we had booked - ranging from barely OK, to complete session writeoffs.

My last beef - why is it when you book a room with a particular piano, they NEVER have it tuned beforehand? Does that always have to rest on the person booking to make sure the piano is tuned AND in excellent working/playing condition?!?

Nice discussion folks - I'm enjoying this immensely!

[grrrayson]

Here's what I did with your file in literally about a minute with spectral repair in Izotope RX. Thanks for helping me combat insomnia (it's 3am Chicago time). The offending frequencies here were between 15 and 150 Hz, by the way.


As for gfmp: you said you "assume" the offending frequency is very low–why do you not know? Why do you have to assume? Do some "search and destroy" EQ to find the offending frequencies.

I'd suggest that a highpass filter sounds like the trick. Why has it not worked so far? You may have to automate it if static EQ thins out the rest of the recording too much.

Backing off mics usually helps. After learning the hard way myself, it seems that the mics being too close may be the most common problem with piano recordings. Has anyone here not done that at some point?



Awesome tips in this thread–I must admit I'm really getting hooked on this forum. I work mostly in studio environments, but I'm seriously looking at getting into more location work in the future.


Cheers to progress.


Grayson

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

My last beef - why is it when you book a room with a particular piano, they NEVER have it tuned beforehand? Does that always have to rest on the person booking to make sure the piano is tuned AND in excellent working/playing condition?!?

You need to specify it in the contract if you want it done.

On the last sessions I did, we had a professional piano technician on site at all recording sessions who would check and tweak the piano several times during the day.

A full check and tune first thing and at lunchtime and available the whole day to adjust as necessary.

It costs money, though.

[Plush]

It is the responsibility of the artist and the engineer to pay to have the piano tuned and regulated before the recording. It is not the responsibility right off the bat for the hall to pay for it. If the recording is important there is usually a piano technician standing by all day at the session to make a tuning and regulation as needed.

A properly set up piano does not have any of the noises that are described in this thread.
If it has those damper or hammer noises, it needs to be repaired.

If one has a really good piano and you still hear the noises, then that is telling you that you are too close with your mics.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Plush

It is the responsibility of the artist and the engineer to pay to have the piano tuned and regulated before the recording.

Tuned - Yes.

Maintenance/regulation - NO WAY. That onus is on the studio owner/hall. That's like renting a car and paying for engine repairs?!?

Depending on the session(s) and if paying full rate for a room that houses a particular piano, I could see it go either way - I will pay tuning if it's a short session and 'indie' rates, but if it's full fare and for longer than one day, I feel the studio should eat that as a cost of doing business. If you're recording 'high profile' artists, you surely can expect to have a tuner/technician at the session, but I've only encountered that once, so is not really germane to my existence...

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

Tuned - Yes.

Maintenance/regulation - NO WAY. That onus is on the studio owner/hall. That's like renting a car and paying for engine repairs?!?

I'm with Plush on this one.

Normal maintenance, of course, is done by the owner.

But a piano changes as it is played and will change during the day as the recording progresses.

Which is why a professional piano recording will always (or should always) have a piano technician on hand throughout the session to tweak as required.

This is *not* just tuning, but doing any adjustments necessary to keep the piano in perfect order.

During my last sessions the technician was called over several times to make adjustments if any note was sot sounding right or handling as the pianist wanted.

[Recording David]

Yep, John and Plush are correct about the piano tech. This is the standard course of events in classical piano recording, in any case.

As for it being the responsibility of the hall, you are renting just the hall in many cases, and often the piano will come from elsewhere (with tech).

[TheSoundPalace]

Excellent repair job on the piano thuds. I tried pulling out those freqs using McDSP Noise Filter without anywhere near your success. I wonder if I should look into getting Isotope Rx or just work harder with McDSP.

[grrrayson]

Thanks!

The two you mention are very different tools. I'm a big fan of Izotope RX–it's an astonishing value.

[sonare]

Look here What's up with classical piano recordings these days?

Scroll down to #89

I was a bit skeptical but this yields a wonderful, balanced sound with hardly any action noise.

Rich