Workhorse Mic Locker

[gareth.h.rees]

Hey guys. I did post this in the "Too much gear.." forum, but thought I'd also post here since I do want the mic's to be suitable for general remote recording. That, and from what I've read you guys seem less affected by "hype" and actually use "tools" - not toys :p

This summer I'm considering having a sort out of all my studio kit and with selling all the bits I don't need, I figure I can raise around £1000 - £1500. With this, I want to buy a good "workhorse" mic collection. I'm not talking anything esoteric, just good quality, dependable mics. My live room is around 3x4m square, and I record mostly alternative/rock - so general guitar/drums/bass. I occasionally do some live recording too, which can vary from rock to jazz, and sometimes classical.

Here's my list as it stands. I've used [ square braces ] for what I think the mic will be used on the most (though I do realise that they can be used on most things!), and ( brackets ) for an alternative mic. At the end of this list, I'll post the mics I already have, and also the mics I'll be selling just in case you guys think I'm throwing away a winner!

Anyway, here we go (prices are approximate):


--------------------------------------
To Buy: LIST A

2 * AT4050
[ overheads, stereo pair, studio vocal ]
£850

1 * Shure Beta 52
( Beyer M88 )
[ kick / Bass ]
£150 - £200

1 * MD421
[ Bass amp, floor tom ]
£250 used

1 * SM7b
[ Live Vocal ]
£250

------------------------------------
Or an alternative selection:
LIST B

2 * Beyer M930
[ overheads, stereo pair ]
£575

1 * AT 4050
( AT4047 )
( acoustic guitar, kick, bass, studio vocal )
£425

1 * Shure Beta 52
( Beyer M88 )
[ kick / Bass ]
£150 - £200

1 * MD421
[ Bass amp, floor tom ]
£250 used

1 * SM7b
[ Live Vocal ]
£250


--------------------------------------
Already Own:

1 * SM57
2 * TNC ACM3's (Royer 121 Ribbon Clones)
5 * Naiant MSH1K (cardioid condenser - Frequency Response: 100Hz to 10kHz)
2 * Naiant MSH1 (6mm Omni Condenser)
2 * Naiant MSH2 (10mm Omni Condenser)
1 * Naiant MSH4 (10mm Omni Valve Condenser)
1 * Beyer TGX-48


---------------------------------------
Mics I'll be selling

1 * Oktava MK319
1 * Tbone Retro Jr ( Lollypop chinese condenser)
1 * Tbone BD300 ( cheap kick mic)
1 * TNC ACM6802 (basically an apex 460)
2 * TNC ACM1 ( big nady style ribbons )


---------------------------------------
Comments:

Not sure between the AT4047 and 4050. The 50 seems a bit more flexible since its multi-patterned, and I've read its a bit more natural - but the 47 would probably have a bit more vibe. Since I only have an Allen and Heath Saber desk and a Presonus digimax fs for pre-amps, a bit of character may be needed? If I do upgrade pre-amps, it will probably be to a DAV BG1.

Its also been suggested that a used pair of 414's would be a better option for around £800 - just found a thread which kind of reinforced that... they don't look as cool for a studio vocal mic though :p


I also had beyer m260's in mind for overheads but was advised that they may not be the best for the job - I'd like to use ribbons as drum overheads since I've heard they do a good job in smaller rooms, and I don't care much for really sizzley cymbals. I'm a little concerned at the roll off of the 260. I could go for the m160's but that would eat up the budget and probably not be hugely flexible?


Okay, so that's about all I can think of for now. Let me know what you think.

I'd like to keep the selection to 'reputable' brands - I don't really fancy MXL or ADK or the like - although I am open to suggestions. Im just looking for a good mic selection that could cope with most situations! I'm not in too much of a rush - just putting some thought in to what I want in case I see any good deals!


Cheers - I look forward to the debate ahead!
Gareth

[LX3]

Hey there Gareth

Given the range of projects you're doing, I'd personally be leaning more towards your list B.

I think you'll get a ton of use out of those Beyer SDCs. Not that I know what the Naiants are like. But the Beyers will come in handy in so many situations, live and in the studio. As room mics, on percussion, overheads, hihat...

The 4047 is a great mic, but in your position I'd go for a 4050, for the versatility. (Although I have two 4047s myself, and no 4050s... but then I have a bunch of 414s. If I find myself in mic-buying mood again some time, some 4050s are on my list.)

You can always save up and get another 4050 at a later date

I also think the M88 is a more useful mic than the MD421, if it was a straight choice between them. I'm just not a 421 fan. Maybe I simply haven't seen the light yet, but the M88 works so well on so many things..

I think it's a good strategic decision to rationalise your collection with "name" brands.

You've reminded me that I must have a bit of a clearance sale with some of my mics too. I have various mics that I've rarely (and in some cases never) used.

[bishopthomas]

They both look like solid plans, although I agree with Paul that plan B is a bit more flexible. The 930's as a stereo pair plus a single 4050 will give you a lot of choices in stereo miking techniques, including MS. I am a fan of the 421 but have sworn off of them for live use, especially for rock shows. They're just too fragile (in 50 years Sennheiser can't come up with a decent clip for them?). Now the RE20...

[Storyville]

4050. not 4047. the difference in "vibe" is a response boost in your high mids. you answered your own question, more natural and flexible for workhorse mics.

I'd also go with List B.

[gareth.h.rees]

Cheers for the good advice guys!

As 'romantic' as two LDC's sounds, I think the MC930's and a single AT4050 is probably going to be the best option. I also have the royer knock offs if I do want something different for overheads...

Now I just need to decide on the dynamics. Though it will depend on cost at the time of purchase, I need three ideally as most of the time I'd like the option for:

1 * Live vocal (in the room with band)
1 * Kick Drum
1 * Bass Amp (or if just DI is used, then it would go on the Floor Tom)

I suppose an m88 would suit all three roles - but would like to offer myself some flexibility.

I was thinking of getting an SM7b because they're pretty cheap in America and I have a friend going over there for a while so could get probably one picked up for around £250.

I'm not that fussy about a bass amp mic really - I'm sure 8 out of 10 times I'll have it DI'd, but its nice to have the option (though - I could use the AT4050 for this to save me some cash). I could probably manage without a low tom mic - again, the 4050 would probably do the job and save me the £200 a 421 would cost - although it would certainly be nice to own one!

Now, the kick drum. Assuming I'll be using the sm7b on the vocal, I'd need something for kick. M88's have been suggested and would probably be more versatile than a dedicated kick mic, but from the brief research I've done it seems to be a case of "you either love it or you hate it". They also seem to break after a while from regular kick use... but I could always just sell it after a year and buy a new one?

Apart from this though, I think clients may be a little put off that I'm putting what looks like a vocal mic into their kick! Also, a beta52 is a little cheaper.

My thinking for a general rock band set up would be:

Overheads: MC930
Snare: SM57
Kick: Beta52
Toms: MSH1k's (never tried them on drums yet so will have to see)
Floor Tom: MSH1k (or 4050 or 421 if not on bass amp)

Guitar Amps: royer clone + MSH1k

Bass Amp: DI + AT4050 (or MD421 if I buy one)

Live Vocal: SM7b

Alternatively I could get a 421 or m88 in place of the beta52 which would be a bit more flexible, but how would either do if I wanted a "rock" kick sound? If the drums were tracked separately then I could pop the SM7 in there - but then it would tie me to the others if I did have vocals going on at the same time.

Cheers for the opinions, definitely lots of help!

Gareth

[LX3]

SM7 as a rock, "In the room" vocal mic = well-proven solution. If you can pick one up cheap, it's a no-brainer.

Kick mics... is there a more discussed topic? IMO, it's all about the drum and the player and the mic positioning, and even the room (because I honestly think the room seems to influence how the drum itself responds. As a drummer myself, I've slowly developed this theory that room reflections/cancellations can actually stop the drum itself speaking properly. Goes for toms too. Whole other topic I realise, but if you think about it, what is the head of a drum if not a great big diaphragm...?)

Given a well-set-up drum and good room, you'll get good results on kick with a Beta 52, or an M88 or... whatever. You've also got the option of the 4050 on the "outside" as well for more air and vibe, and to capture a bit of trash from the rest of the kit as well.

Bass amp... In my experience, you can play with amp simulators and compression and EQ for hours on end and never quite get the warmth and presence of a good mic on a real cab, with a real amp. I would never NOT track the bass thru an amp as well as DI. Unless the bass player just didn't like amps.

M88 is my go-to bass amp mic, especially live, but a good LDC works great as well (especially if you have some isolation for the bass amp).

So if it were me, I'd be getting the Beta 52 and an M88. Tracking everyone live, I'd have the M88 on bass and the Beta 52 on kick, singer in a booth with the 4050, or in the control room with the SM7 if they're a "screamer"

Actually, between the mics you're talking about, you have loads of options. I don't think you'll ever regret buying any of them. Just for me, the 421 would be a flavour I'd be picking up later.

[LX3]

PS don't forget snare bottom! Essential.

[gareth.h.rees]

Again, thanks for the great advice Paul!

That pretty much settles that then!

M88 seems to be generally cheaper, so always a bonus!

I think you're right - can't really go wrong with a combo of any of them, so it will probably be the beta52 and the m88 unless I find an md421 for a crazy price. Maybe both in that case I think the m88 would be more flexible than a 421 anyway, as it wouldn't look stupid in front of a singer at a gig :D

Not sure what I'll be doing with bass regarding amps yet - my studio isn't huge so a big bass amp may destroy everything - but I do have the options of putting it in another room in the house so it could work. But yeah - I'd like to have the option to be able to do it - even if its re-amping, and having the option but not using it sometimes would give me more drum mics

That was the plan for the vocals pretty much! 4050 for overdubs, SM7 for in the live or control room!

Snare bottom - Personally never really used one but for 'studio' recordings I think it would probably make life easier! Will use one of the Naiant MSH1k's for that.

Sounds like I'll have a good combo for pretty much anything with that lot as you said! Just hope I get enough money from the gear sales now

Thanks for the help again!

p.s. current studio pic's are here if anyone is interested :p Gareth Rees [dot] Info || Gareth Rees
No photo's of the live room yet but sketch-up models are in this post: Small Live Room Treatment

Cheers!
Gareth

[bishopthomas]

The SM7 will be good for in the studio, but for live recordings you may want a few handheld dynamics. Although, most venues will have 58's on hand so you can just split them. You know better than us if that will work for you.

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

The SM7 will be good for in the studio, but for live recordings you may want a few handheld dynamics. Although, most venues will have 58's on hand so you can just split them. You know better than us if that will work for you.

That thought had come to mind. I'm lucky enough to work in a venue that has a shedload of 57 and 58's, so I could probably borrow some now and again if I really needed to - however, couldn't borrow them for every session in the studio so I figure I'll figure out what to do when the time comes if I need them. Probably much cheaper to hire than the more 'studio' oriented mics too!

Thanks for the thought though!
Gareth

[Daniel Stark]

Why are you getting rid of the Oktava? I have one hanging around my schoeps and gefells and it does come in handy...Plus it will only bring in like $75.

How are the Naiant mics, I notice you are hanging on to a bunch of those?

I went through a similar thing not too long ago selling a bunch of cheap mics to invest in "keepers".......Very glad I did!!!! and suspect you will be too.

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by Daniel Stark

Why are you getting rid of the Oktava? I have one hanging around my schoeps and gefells and it does come in handy...Plus it will only bring in like $75.

How are the Naiant mics, I notice you are hanging on to a bunch of those?

I went through a similar thing not too long ago selling a bunch of cheap mics to invest in "keepers".......Very glad I did!!!! and suspect you will be too.

Well, although its a reasonable mic, it doesn't really fit in with what I want - all rounder, durable and flexible mics. It will be one of the last I sell, but over here they go for £150 new - I'd imagine I can get £100 for it, and I've seen Beyer m88's go used for £150. So every little helps is the case I think!

Even then, I still need a whole bunch of new/extra gear to complete my set up for what I want it to be able to do. I mean, a decent and big mic stand that can get high enough for choirs will cost £150 easily! 6u flightcase - £80.. the list goes on and on


The Naiants - for the money, I can't fault them! The MSH1K's (discontinued) are awesome on electric guitar - really midrange-y.

The MSH1's and 2's are fine as well - but I haven't really used any of them in a real 'studio' environment. They've all been for location recording, in generally bad rooms!

I haven't used the MSH4 yet - but am hoping to on some sessions this summer once my studio is ready.

Here's two I recorded a while ago in a conference room, mic listing below:

http://users.cs.cf.ac.uk/G.Rees/Misc...h_Birdland.mp3

http://users.cs.cf.ac.uk/G.Rees/Misc...rmyWeather.mp3


Drum Overheads: Naiant MSH2's
Bass: DI
Keys: DI
Trombones: ACM1 (big ribbon)
Trumpets: ACM1
Sax's: 1 * Naiant MSH1
Vocal - SM58 (only because the soundcraft desk phantom power wasn't up to powering my Oktava!!)

All in to a soundcraft spirit fx mixer, direct to minidisk

To me the overheads sound a bit roomy, but probably because inexperience made me afraid of putting them closer than they were.


Yes, I'm really looking forward to having a bunch of *good* mics. I do believe you can do well with pretty much anything, but it will be nice to have microphones which are all well renowned, which will make me think that "everyone uses these - if it doesn't sound right, it isnt the gear!"

Gareth

[gareth.h.rees]

Awesome - Just scored a 421 for £150 used!

[Remoteness]

Cool; is it a MD421 or a MD421 MKII?

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Cool; is it a MD421 or a MD421 MKII?

MD421-U-5 apparently - he said he 'thinks' its an earlier one.

Either way I was pretty chuffed!

Edit: This is it

[Remoteness]

No, you should be excited to have grabbed the earlier, original one!
IMO, they sound so much better than the new MKIIs.

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

No, you should be excited to have grabbed the earlier, original one!
IMO, they sound so much better than the new MKIIs.

I've heard this too - which does make me a happy guy!

I'm just a beginner though, so £150 for any 421 was a steal for me

[gareth.h.rees]

I keep seeing people say how Beyer m160's are great for "crappy rooms with low ceilings"

That probably describes my live room!

Also UK clubs can be pretty small places with pretty low ceilings... Although the m160's would probably limit my 'classical' recording possibilities (has anyone used them for choir/small orchestral style groups?) they may work in my favour for rock and jazz?

Here's a mock up of my live room. Dimensions around 3m x 4m x 2.5m

[hrn]

Have a look at the Sennheiser microphones.

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by hrn

Have a look at the Sennheiser microphones.

Any particular ones you had in mind?

The E914 seems to be the only SDC in my price range...

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by gareth.h.rees

I keep seeing people say how Beyer m160's are great for "crappy rooms with low ceilings"

That probably describes my live room!

Also UK clubs can be pretty small places with pretty low ceilings... Although the m160's would probably limit my 'classical' recording possibilities (has anyone used them for choir/small orchestral style groups?) they may work in my favour for rock and jazz?

Here's a mock up of my live room. Dimensions around 3m x 4m x 2.5m

Hey guys - any opinions on this?

I think I've just scored a regular gig recording live bands in a fairly small club room. I'll try to get pictures of it but the ceiling is probably only 3 - 4 meters high.

I was thinking the m160's - or even a 160 and 130 for mid/side drum overheads would work better in this situation, rather than MC930's?

What you think?

[gareth.h.rees]

I think I'm going to go with the m160's as overheads.

I may try out some Line Audio CM3's as a cheaper pair of SDC's.

Just bought a Beyer m88 for £150 too

Cheers for all the help so far - I'm sure once I get it all I'll have plenty of questions about how to get the best out of it all

Gareth

[gareth.h.rees]

Just to let you guys know and thank you for all the advice so far, I've manged to buy the following for pretty reasonable prices:

m88 - £155
md421 - £150
sm7 - £250
at4050 - £205

Not bad ehy?!

Leaves me just enough cash for either a pair of m160's or mc930's. Still undecided on that though!!

Again, thanks for the good advice - can't wait to try them all out!

Cheers
Gareth

[gareth.h.rees]

Just snapped up a pair of Beyer cv701 / ck703 sdc's on ebay for £250.

Are they any good?! I believe they're an earlier generation of the mc930's.

May be able to get those m160's and the sdc's now