Live Rig Questions...

[choinga]

I won't be doing any recording...but I'm putting a live rig together and looking for a few suggestions.

I'll be using the new JBL EON 515's and 518 subs.

Looking for a 16 channel console that can fit in a rack (like the Mackie 1604). I used to use Mackie years ago for live work - I didn't know any better then, but they always sounded good enough to me and were pretty durable. Same story now?

I need a dual - pref 31 band EQ. Any recommendations?

Reverb unit. What's the best bang for the buck at around $1k (something I can use in my home studio as well would be nice)? I'm thinking the PCM 70 but I can't find one...I guess everyone likes them so much, no one wants to sell them (at least not with the v2 firmware...). I've seen the PCM 91's on eBay for ~$1100 - is this a no brainer??

Also, curious if anyone ever uses any of their studio gear (compressors, mic pre's) when doing live work? I've got a Crane Song Trakker, Portico Compressor, GTQ2, etc... I won't be doing a bunch of live work so putting in these in a rack won't get them torn up from being dragged around gig to gig - but is it worth it? I love what the Portico does to my 2 buss when recording...curious what that would sound like strapped to the stereo outputs of my console when playing live.

Also, has anyone had any experience with the Shure KSM9 mic's? I own a Audix OM5 and OM7 and love them both (wife uses the OM5 and I use the OM7) but while I'm on a spending spree...

Anything else I'm missing? A nice 2 channel rack compressor would be nice for whatever would be nice to have in there...I'm thinking something DBX...

Thanks in advance!

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by choinga

I won't be doing any recording...but I'm putting a live rig together and looking for a few suggestions.

I'll be using the new JBL EON 515's and 518 subs.

Looking for a 16 channel console that can fit in a rack (like the Mackie 1604). I used to use Mackie years ago for live work - I didn't know any better then, but they always sounded good enough to me and were pretty durable. Same story now?

I need a dual - pref 31 band EQ. Any recommendations?

Reverb unit. What's the best bang for the buck at around $1k (something I can use in my home studio as well would be nice)? I'm thinking the PCM 70 but I can't find one...I guess everyone likes them so much, no one wants to sell them (at least not with the v2 firmware...). I've seen the PCM 91's on eBay for ~$1100 - is this a no brainer??

Also, curious if anyone ever uses any of their studio gear (compressors, mic pre's) when doing live work? I've got a Crane Song Trakker, Portico Compressor, GTQ2, etc... I won't be doing a bunch of live work so putting in these in a rack won't get them torn up from being dragged around gig to gig - but is it worth it? I love what the Portico does to my 2 buss when recording...curious what that would sound like strapped to the stereo outputs of my console when playing live.

Also, has anyone had any experience with the Shure KSM9 mic's? I own a Audix OM5 and OM7 and love them both (wife uses the OM5 and I use the OM7) but while I'm on a spending spree...

Anything else I'm missing? A nice 2 channel rack compressor would be nice for whatever would be nice to have in there...I'm thinking something DBX...

Thanks in advance!

I would go Alan and Heath over Mackie...I wouldn't take any of your recording gear on the road...I would (for that rig) keep compression out of the equation all together and there are plenty of low end 31 band eq's that come up on craigs list...the ashley digital one can be very handy.....doesn't sound awesome but does a good job...lots of options.

nick

[choinga]

Thanks man. I'm never a fan of buying crappy gear. I'm not going to blow $3k on FOH speakers and put a $80 used Rane EQ in front of it. Not gonna happen...

[MikeV]

The MixWizard is significantly better than the 1604 IMO. Dual band EQ, bigger knobs and better spacing, nicer feel to the faders. A few less pres, but much more versatile mixer for what I do at least. It also offers two stereo channels for keyboards and the like.

We have the "Monitor" version, which has the matrix and 4 groups, 6 aux's. The MixWiz also has dual sweepable mids, unlike the 1604. But 1604 is ok too and can be picked up for a reasonable price as well.

The DBX DriveRack PA is a nice piece, compressions, Parametric EQ, RTA, limiter and crossover as well as Feedback reduction etc... etc... I really only use it as a crossover, compressor and RTA for the mains. I always throw a dbx 166XL or Ashly compressor on each input that requires one. Never hurts to have a graphic on the mains and front fills to do your own tweaks as well.

The headroom on the MixWizard is ok, it has pads, and the pres are probably better than the Mackie, I never have had a chance to truly A/B them but I always take the A&H and avoid the Mackie.

[choinga]

Thanks - that mixwizard looks very nice and not much more than that 1604. I'm pretty sure I'm going to head that route instead of the Mackie this time around.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to pull the trigger on a Neumann KMS105 as well. Not sure how much gain those need, but I'm sure this board will handle it fine. With the 1604 I had the input gain about 85% of the way up with my OM7.

I'll probably drag along my Portico compressor and insert it into the vocal channels. When I get everything I'm going to hook it all up and see if it really makes a difference but my wife and I both are pretty dynamic singers and definitely need some compression on our vocals to tame the peaks.

[dbbubba]

I'll second the recommendation for the DBX DriveRack Series because they do offer quite a bit of bang for the buck.

I have one in a rack of Crown MacroTech 3600s and 2400s in place of a Renkus Heinz "Smart System" processor. Really old-school!
The Smart System was designed to go with the Renkus speakers and enclosures, but the actual Renkus rack units had slowly fallen apart from the years of use (20 years.)
We built this rack for a down and dirty "ground rig" that we could truck around the country for use when we couldn't justify the expense of flying our bigger Nexo rig.

I was able to reverse engineer the crossover parameters by doing plots of the curves with a Loftec tone generator/freq. counter/meter and a few phone calls to Renkus Heinz.
The Smart System had a feedback loop where the output of the amps fed back into the crossover.
After talking to Mr. Heinz I ralized that feature wasn't really necessary as it was just a driver protection circuit to protect the low wattage drivers.

I use the DBX 266 Driverack for system EQ, band limiters and over-all compression as well as a crossover.
It makes for a really nice sounding 8Kw rig that packs with a fairly small truck footprint.
I'm fairly picky and I have not had any problems getting a decent sound using the 31 band EQ for tweaks.
The compressor is not bad either, but like all digital compressors, the metering is somewhat of a compromise. You gotta' use your ears.

For a decent and cost effective reverb I would try to score a Yamaha REV500 or two.
Our music mix FOH FX rack has a Lexicon 200, a Harmonizer HE3000se, but I use the two Yamaha REV500s more because they are easy to set up and make changes to on the fly.
I use another friend's music rig a lot and he has a few TC units along with a pair of REV500s (on my recommendation) and the REV500s are FAR easier to use.
I like easy to use pieces instead of tweaky stuff like the TC stuff.

If you want a physical, stand-alone 31 band I would not hesitate to recommend the dbx 2 rack space units.
They are down and dirty, but are quiet enough.
I actually had a personal rack with a pair of White 4001s, but I replaced the Whites with DBX units.
They are quiet enough.
I also have several Ashley 31 bands and while they have longer throw faders and can be maybe fine-tuned a bit, they aren't really $700.00 better.
The noise floor seems to be the same with both units.

In the description of what you want to buy/use I notice that you mention the JBL EON series.
I have found that they are really under-powered and a HUGE pain in the ass to have re-coned when a driver gets toasted or fails due to the rigors of live use.
We have about twenty-eight Mackie SRM750s and maybe twelve EONs.
The EONs just stay in their Anvil cases at the warehouse.
We do mostly music playback gigs and the EONs run out of juice too quick.
The low end drivers end up flapping and eventually get tears.

Don't get me wrong I like JBL's higher end stuff... just not the EONs.

[choinga]

Thanks man!

You have twelve of the new 515's?? The new models have a Crown amp built into them, not that just because it's a Crown makes it better than anything else - but I can't imagine that they run out of steam that quickly.

I'm not playing any large rooms - acoustic stuff w/ occasional sit ins and such for relatively small/medium sized rooms - some outdoor stuff possibly, but medium sized at best. I've used the EON G2's years ago and found that they were more than enough to carry the rooms I play - and I personally liked the way the sounded better than the Mackie's. More punchy, didn't need a lot of EQ, very 'full' sounding. I also have heard a lot of overheating problems with the Mackies. I'm going to buy the 518's as well so with them crossed over I should have plenty of sound to fill a pretty decent sized room, I hope.

[MikeV]

With the KMS, you will be fine with the MixWiz pres, but I would recommend a Beta87 as well, they come in cardoid and supercardoid (maybe hypercardoid but not sure). With the EONs, it is unlikely that you will note a difference between the KMS and the Beta87. Something tells me the 87 has better feedback rejection but I tend to visualize the KMS at a handheld tlm103 for some reason.

If you are looking at that level of quality though, a pair of channel strips for vocals may not be a bad idea. The Presonus Eureka is a nice unit with 3-band fully parametric EQ with width on each frequency, a compressor with side-chain, decent gain, 80hz rolloff, pad, input impedance select, "saturation" etc... etc... can even use it in the studio. Price point is great and you can find very good deals on them on eBay. You can also swap the EQ and place it before the compressor with the push of a button when desired.

As for the Mackie's overheating, you bet they do. They don't cool down quickly either, about an hour at least, especially in hot / humid environment.

I use the EV QRX112 often and really like them; very versatile. They take a bit of EQ, but the DriveRack will take care of that in about one minute.

Passive speakers give you the option of having a clean looking setup that sounds great and has less cable runs. You can pick up their passive subs and stick two amps on the bottom of your FOH rack and do a "pass-thru" your passive subs so you have one run of NL4 "through" your subs and into your mains; one pair powering the subs and the second powering the mains. Very clean, especially if you are pole-mounting your mains on the subs.

The QRX112's are also rig-able and you can even make mini line arrays out of them by turning the horn and stacking them horizontal from the built in "air-craft" points, very cool, handy and clean looking.

[MikeV]

Have to agree with dbbubba on the dbx EQ's, we have racks of them and they are alway great. Be sure to pickup a 3U EQ, it is much easier to make precise adjustments with the longer throw "faders". The 2U EQs are ok, but tiny adjustments (which is all you will need if you have a driverack) are too hard to make minor tweaks on.

The QSC amps we use have proven dependable, much more so then the Crown XTis we have in stock (two of them all of a sudden won't pass signal)

[MikeV]

One more thought!

If you are looking at active subs with built-in crossover, it may be to your benefit to do a manual EQ or an automated RTA EQ with the driverack and set it as a full range setup for just your tops. Then run your subs on an Aux and use their built in crossover. This helps a ton with low-end feedback rejection, especially with condenser mics. That way you only send what you need to your subs, crispens things up a bit and is particularly helpful with lavalieres and the like.

[choinga]

Thanks man.

The EV's are 2X the price of the EON's and then I still have to go buy a nice amp and subs (and another amp).

As for the clean cable runs - with the 515/518 combo, I can run one line to each side and then a short line from the sub to the main, so going passive doesn't really clean any of that up for me. Just read the above post on the Driverack...I don't know a lot about that unit so I'm having a hard time visualizing how that would setup...I know it has a crossover but so does the JBL system so I'd have to just tweak with that until I figured out what worked the best.

Do you need a 31 band EQ AFTER the Driverack as well? That doesn't make any sense to me...well, I guess it does if you wanted to do a quick tweak...but my intent was to get one or two of those for inserts or use it for a monitor system since they are so cheap.

So far, I'm thinking the A&H console, the DBX 260 on the mains, a DBX 231 dual 31 EQ, the EON's (515/518 per side) and as I mentioned I'll probably use my Portico 5043 via insert on the two vox channels.

Haven't figured out what I'll do for the monitors yet...I'll probably pick up one of the smaller powered EON's...just easy that way. I've got an old Garwood in-ear monitor system w/ custom ear molds from back in my playing days that I may use...not sure yet. At most of the live acoustic gigs I did a couple years ago, we didn't even use monitors...and I actually enjoyed that. We were able to get the mains far enough out to the side and angle them in a bit that we heard just enough of the sound to get by. I liked it because it forces you to project more and it actually cut down on the feedback since we didn't have a wedge in front of us.

[MikeV]

dbx DriveRack PX | Sweetwater.com

That unit should be fine, the one I was referencing earlier, the DriveRack PA, does 3-way setups and also delay-compensation. But the PX should be exactly what you need.

Essentially you plug in your main-outs into the inputs of the unit and then the outs from the PX to your speakers inputs. The unit will do cross-over, automatic feedback suppression (AFS), 28-band auto-eq (RTA), limiting, and also offer a parametric EQ on your main signal.

The PA model expands on this again with limiting on the main input and compression on each output (HI, MID, and Low) independently, as well as add more feedback suppression filters, delay and a few other items including sub-synth.

So now with this unit in-line with your signal to your speakers, it can control all these parameters. To do a room EQ, you simply place an RTA mic (purchased separately for about $100) on a stand in your room in front of the speakers. The unit then plays Pink-Noise through your system and analyzes the signal it receives from the RTA mic. It then takes the information and EQs the room automatically to a curve you select. Most of the time you will want your room EQ'd flat, but it offers a few curves based on your preferences, which is mostly used or pre-recorded playback in clubs for example.

The compression and limiting is also in the unit and can be adjusted manually as is the same with the parametric EQ.

I always put a 31-band graphic before the DriveRack so I can pull any hot frequencies that may be introduced once the room fills up, or that my performance mics are particular about (use it 50% of the time when lavalieres are used). In your case I wouldn't say it is mandatory, but I would suggest it if you can do it. If you do choose to put a graphic in-line, be sure it is bypassed when you are doing the RTA.

Set your JBL crossover as high as it will go and don't run the signal for your tops through the subs. That way, you have independent control of the subs crossover and the mains back at the DriveRack.

For your monitors, I generally use more QRX112s, but I have also used Mackie SRM350s and 450s. For what they are, I like the 350s better. I can't comment on the small EONs as I have not used them, but it would be nice to have all JBL for sanity reasons.

If you are using condensers on stage, depending on your gain structure, I would also stick a graphic in-line with your monitor send(s). Get to a gig a little early or that you play often and do a "feedback EQ" on the monitors with your graphic EQ and a relatively flat condenser mic pointed at them from where your mic will be. This will help you get a nice flat response from the monitors and you can just leave this setting in the graphic EQs and probably never need to touch it again even at different venues because you will always be only a few feet away, so the room won't impact it much.

The DriveRack also stores 25 or 99 presets (depending on if you purchase the PX or PA). So now you can store all you EQ data etc.. for each venue you play and never need to actually EQ the room again.

So now that you have a flat response from the main PA and the stage monitors, you will be able to make relatively accurate EQ and other adjustments from the stage and it should reflect the same change on the main PA as well. And again, once you get your board tweaked out to the way you like, it is unlikely that you will need to make any major adjustments from venue to venue.

... Think of it like a big studio monitor system in the house and on stage; virtually flat.

And seeing it is essentially a "flat" system you should be able to get a decent direct-to-stereo recording from the tape-outs or the matrix on the A&H right to a solid-state recorder that will only need minor tweaking back at home if any.

This whole system should be able to fit into a stand rolling FOH case with the mixer on top and your processing below, the DBX is only 1 rack unit! You could even make a panel on the back to just plug in your outs to pre-labeled jacks with power and everything; Ramtech makes nice cables that carry XLR, IEC and an extension all in one shot that can hook right up. You would even use a twist lock on that rear panel to make sure your main power doesn't get pulled by accident.

[MikeV]

Here are the Ramtech cables:

RAMTECH - Powered Monitor Cables

[dbbubba]

The problem I have with EONs is that the molded front piece is the actual basket (frame) for the 15" driver.
It isn't a seperate driver bolted to an enclosure.
The enclosure itself is the driver's frame.
The actual 15" driver is a cheap paper cone with a paper edge.
Maybe they have improved this with the new models, but the old ones are pretty cheap.
The are quite prone to rips and tears at the 15" s cone edge.

The high freq, driver is a 1" which doesn't have much throw.

Even re-one shops don't like to deal with the EONs.

All of our EONs have developed weird rattles and buzzes.
It is either from use/abuse and being hammered.

Earlier I said we had 28 Mackies.
They are all SRM450s.
Our EONs are all the older first generation models (all P.O.S.)

The Mackies sound fine and we ship them all over the U.S. by freight all year long.
We have had two amps fail in eight years and maybe three drivers lock up.
I think we have only lost one high freq. driver and that was due to an amp going DC.

The SRM 450s sound fine flat although I do a small 3db dip at 400hz.

I'll also add that all of our drivers that locked up were due to the operators dogging the hell out of them.
It is hard to explain, but they are used for playback and the people can crank them without our knowledge.

Also, the overheating problem with the SRM450s really only happens when they are being used as floor wedges and placed on their sides.
I have had them overheat when used this way, but ONLY OUTDOORS.
We normally use them on sticks in a hotel or convention center ballroom and even when run quite loud I have never had one overheat.
As long as the heatsink has adequate ventilation and isn't in direct, outdoor sunlight they are fine.

I have had the EONs overheat more often.

[Rolff]

I'll be using the new JBL EON 515's and 518 subs.

So how are the EON 515 speakers working out for you?
Thanks!
Rolff