Recording Solo Violin

[gasbug]

Hello,
I am recording a solo voilin and could use some suggestions mic's, mic pre and placement.
I have access to a 10x10x8 or 20x20x10 sized room will be recording direct to hard drive.

These are the mics I have acces to...
1 AKG C-414 B ULS
1 AKG C535
2 Audio Technica AT4050
1 Blue Blueberry
2 Cad/Equitek E-100
2 Earrhworks TC-40k
1 EV RE-20
1 GT GT55
2 M-audio Pulsar
2 M-audio Nova
2 Neumann KLM184
1 Neumann U87AI
1 Neumann TLM103
Many Shure SM57&58

Mic Pre
1 UA solo 610
1 Millenia TD-1
YAMAHA O2R96 digital console

And I'm also willing to buy a pair affodable ribbon mic like Fathead or shinybox, too.

This is my first post, so let me know if I left any info. out. Regards, DH

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by gasbug

This is my first post, so let me know if I left any info. out

Yes, you left out the most important piece of information: What are you recording it for?

Is this a solo recital of classical repertoire? Or is it a solo violin as part of a folk/rock/pop/whatever arrangement?


Daniel

[joelpatterson]

Luckily for you-- I have made all kinds of mistakes trying to record violin.

The end of all my searching has led me to the conclusion that what you think of as the sound of a violin is most particularly the sound of a violin filling up the room.

Also, oddly maybe, the sound emanates upward from the bow and body and all that, but what you hear when you get too near to the instrument from above is harsh and intense and grating.

The best results have happened when I was restricted by the geometries of the concert from getting too close, and I was say maybe at least twenty feet away, and my mics were on the same plane as the player, four or five or six feet from the floor.

That's when you hear the singing, fluid, pure tone that you'd call "violin."

You've got all kinds of mics to choose from... I'd steer clear of the "bright" ones and maybe favor the ribbon-styles?

[Corran]

Yeah even a ribbon can be harsh up close, as I've discovered for myself...

Ribbons or similarly dark mics about 3-5 feet out might be a good start. If it's classical though I'd try to find a church or someplace bigger to record in myself.

[RobAnderson]

Joel makes a good point - the nasty high-frequency stuff generally radiates upwards more than forwards on a violin. I have made this mistake more times than I care to admit.

If it is too bright and harsh, lower the mic's.

If you have a less-than-stellar room to work in, you don't really want to get too far away. Once the imprint of the room is on the recording, it's pretty much impossible to get it out.

It is always easier to make something sound further away later with hf rolloff and/or reverb.

You already have some wonderful mic's for this job. Not sure if you have the option to multi-track, but if you did, I'd try a C414 as a close mic safety option and then have an ORTF pair as your "real recording" (all recorded to separate tracks) - your 184's would probably work very nicely for this. If you get it home and realize the room was not as wonderful as you thought, you'd still have the spot mic to create a whole new thing with.

What you lack for this job is preamps I think. Instead of buying the mic's maybe consider investing in a Sytek - excellent bang-for-the-buck for this sort of thing. Use that for your ORTF and use the Millennia or the UA for the close mic.

Just my .$02...

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by gasbug

Hello,
I am recording a solo voilin and could use some suggestions mic's, mic pre and placement.
I have access to a 10x10x8 or 20x20x10 sized room will be recording direct to hard drive.


And I'm also willing to buy a pair affodable ribbon mic like Fathead or shinybox, too.

This is my first post, so let me know if I left any info. out. Regards, DH

Millennia pre for sure!

I would get a few solo Bach recordings like those of Sergiu Luca and the like.
Once you have the sound in your head, you can find it in your room.

Is it possible to have a preliminary session where all you do is sound?
Try a 6-7 different setups and move them around. Get the player to come listen.

Give yourself time if this is a first time for you.
It is BTW remarkable how good a mic you forgot to raise all the way, or got bumped into a different spot, can sound.

I cannot say which mic in your collection would work for your player in your room.
Personally I would bring to the soundcheck:
a pair of M150 style mics
a pair of schoeps with MK2,mk2h, mk6, mk4, mk21
a pair of 4003
possibly a royer sf12, but my inclination would be to leave the ribbons at home for classical violin.

In a really good room, the M150 or schoeps mk2h/ka40 would offer me the most flexible and high class sound.
The mk21 is better in overly reverberant acoustics, and also has a treble that can be just right (often for violin) or very wrong (with certain brass sections)

With your mics I would want to try the 414 and the U87.
I have never recorded violin with only one mic, nor have I tried with two non matching mics, but I am sure you could make it work.
COuld you buy or borrow another U87 or 414?

What is the style, orchestration and purpose of the recording?
To me that is a huge part of how you set the sound.

Remember that the lid of the violin eminates more treble and the instrument often sounds better from the front with the mic at the same height as the intrument.
Use placement as EQ.
More lid gets more treble, lower, more to the side or behind is darker.
There are no rules!

[DanDan]

C535 and UA610. Also try the 414.
DD

[David Rick]

What Joel wrote bears repeating. A colleague once put it this way:

"You don't mic a violin, you mic the room that it's playing in."

Walk the room to find a spot where the violin sounds good. Put up a near-coincident pair of 414's. (Some people use M/S in this application, and that's ok too.) Mics hear differently than ears, so move the stand towards or away from the player until you have the correct amount of reverberance. Finally, dial in the stereo image by changing the mic angles, spacing, and possibly patterns. (See Williams, The Stereophonic Zoom if you don't understand the basic principles.)
In this case, there isn't an optimal stage width because there's only one player, but different mic setups will present the room differently. You want a good spread to the reverb, but you don't want the violin image to wander.

I wouldn't bother with a spot mic, unless I was forced to monitor on headphones and couldn't judge the stereo image properly. I think it's better to spend your time getting the main pair in the best place.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[David Rick]

Oops! I just realized you only have one 414. Given that, I'd probably use it for the side mic in M/S. For the mid, I'd try either the U87 or a 4050.

David

[fallforward]

If it is for a classical solo piece (which I get the feeling it is) and you have a decent sounding room/hall, I would use a M/S pair. I feel that mid side feels more natrual for solo pieces than XY or ORTF.

Experiment with some different mics and placements, but get as far back as the room will permit. Meaning once you hear more room than violin, time to bring it closer. I would only put up one mic if this is an overdub for something. If it is intended to be a stand alone violin piece it should be recorded in stereo.

Good Luck Man!
Robby

p.s. I second the aformentioned mid U87 side 414, as the best place to start!

[klaukholm]

If it is unaccompanied classical, I would first try a spaced omni approach if the room sounds good.

[RobAnderson]

FWIW I don't think you're going to be able to get too far away in a 10x10 room with an 8 ft ceiling. If these rooms you list are your only choices, go with the bigger one to be sure.

David and Robby: just curious - do you guys have any pic's on how you would rig the M/S with U87 and C414? I never really thought of trying those two mic's together...

Of the above choices, which pre would you use with which, or would you send them both through the Yamaha?

Edit: now that I really think about the size of these rooms, forget my original suggestion - a single M/S array is definitely the way to go.

[David Rick]

I really should have read your post better! These are small rooms, and the 20x20x10 one is going to have really bad mode stack-up. If this is the largest room you have available, then it's really important that you move the player around until he or she isn't exciting any really awful resonances.

Have the violinist walk around until they find a spot that sounds best to them. Then have them play multi-octave chromatic scales (slowly) so you don't get surprised. Once you've placed the performer, then you can start figuring out where the mic stand goes. Don't be afraid to try setups which are asymmetric with respect to the room walls. You can pivot the player in place if you need to.

Kjetil, in light of the room, I think spaced omnis are out. But even in larger rooms, don't you notice that a soloist tends to bounce around the sound stage? I've heard that in Yo-yo Ma recordings made with spaced omni's, and it drives me nuts.

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

David and Robby: just curious - do you guys have any pic's on how you would rig the M/S with U87 and C414? I never really thought of trying those two mic's together...

I've attached a picture showing how I did it with two 414's.

Of the above choices, which pre would you use with which, or would you send them both through the Yamaha?

I would use the Millennia for M and the UA for S. And then if I didn't like that, I would swap them! I would avoid the Yamaha preamps like the plague. If the Yamaha is your only ADC, then consider patching in at the channel insert points to put less circuitry in the signal path.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[RobAnderson]

Thanks for the pictures David!

I see you are using the Shure "doughnuts" - that's a great idea.

What kind of clamps are those?

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Thanks for the pictures David!

I see you are using the Shure "doughnuts" - that's a great idea.

What kind of clamps are those?

Those are generic clamps, sold in 80% of the music stores on earth.

David

[gasbug]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Yes, you left out the most important piece of information: What are you recording it for?

Is this a solo recital of classical repertoire? Or is it a solo violin as part of a folk/rock/pop/whatever arrangement?

Thanks for replying.
That's actually a hard question, because this is an electronic piece.
I'm working on a piece for real solo violin and drum'n bassy electronic rhythm section.

The sound will varies at differnet section. But I'm want to get something like Stephanie Grappelli's modern recording(not 1920's hot club era), or I just want something warm and expressive.

Also I already tried almost all the mic in the list, and actually they all sound harsh, screechy, nothing warm.

This not a classical piece, so maybe I don't need much room sound. But, Violin is still the most important part of the piece. So I really want to preserve all the expression of the instrument.

Thanks,
DH

[fallforward]

That looks great with the clamps, I wish I had thought of that, it looks a lot quicker than buggering around with two stands. I am going to pick up a couple of those!

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by gasbug

That's actually a hard question, because this is an electronic piece. I'm working on a piece for real solo violin and drum'n bassy electronic rhythm section.

I guess my approach would be to record it mono, fairly close-up and dry, and to reverberate electronically, according to what the electronic section gets.

Also I already tried almost all the mic in the list, and actually they all sound harsh, screechy, nothing warm.

Haven't tried personally, but a friend liked the U87 as a spot on a solo violin (alongside an organ). I guess this or the 414 could be EQed to provide a good sound.

If you want something unscreechy, see if you can get hold of a Sennheiser MHK 40 or 50 (I've not used the new 8040/8050, these might work as well).
And then, maybe the SM57 will give you just the sound you want, who knows...

Please post a sample of the piece when you're done...

Originally Posted by David Rick

I've attached a picture showing how I did it with two 414's.

While this may be a bit OT, here's a similar contraption I used for a Blumlein. Can be turned a bit for M/S...




Daniel

[chris319]

I already tried almost all the mic in the list, and actually they all sound harsh, screechy, nothing warm.

You have mostly condensers on that list except for the SM57s/58s and the RE20. The RE20 is not a particularly warm mic.

A ribbon mic will be warmer than a condenser mic but most ribbon mics are bidirectional, so you might pick up too much room. You might look into renting a Beyerdynamic M 160 hypercardioid (they are not cheap to buy).

Studio microphones

You can listen to one here:

Mic Table

It might be a little too warm, but the only way to know for sure is to try it. So many times these things are a matter of trial and error. Another idea might be a (rented) RCA 77DX in the unidirectional setting or a Sennheiser MD441. Or a Shure SM7B?

Let us know what you use and post a sample.

DISCLAIMER: I could be wrong on any or all of this.

[hbphotoav]

I work with a violinist here in Nashville who does an eclectic mix of acoustic classical/pop/roots/bluegrass/Celtic with a five piece. I've tried a bunch of mics (I'm there for reinforcement duties, but use the gigs as a lab for location tracking practice and mic selection) and the best sounds I've recorded are my Sennheiser MKH8040 (6" away and "down" more than "over" the instrument... almost at a 6" out vocal mic position) and a Cascade FatHead (close-in, favoring the low strings... almost out over her left shoulder). The FatHead's natural HF rolloff was good at eliminating the screechies, and the off-the-top position of the relatively flat-line response of the 8040 was dang nice. Of course, at a 10x price differential, it ought to have been.

[sonare]

Just curious if you have done a search-- seems like this question has been asked before.

Rich

[gasbug]

Originally Posted by sonare

Just curious if you have done a search-- seems like this question has been asked before.

Rich

Yes, I did.
I actually spent pretty good amount of time to search here, then tried what I found here. But I only got harsh sound..,

[gasbug]

Thanks everyone.
You guys really help me a lot, there is a lot of wisdom here.


I can borrow a coles 4038, and pair of Fathead II with cinemag transformer.

for mic pres, I will try both UA and millenia, send to YAMAHA to digi 192 IO. so AD will be 192 IO.

The reason I put yamaha in the list is I only have 2 different mic pres.
so maybe I should use yamaha's pre for XY or some stereo recording technique.

Thanks anyway, I will definitely try what you guys mention here,
and will post what I recorded with various MIC in here.
DH

[Remoteness]

You may have tried both options, but if you just did a normal search you may want to try the popular tag called > http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tags/violin-viola-cello/

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by gasbug

Thanks everyone.
You guys really help me a lot, there is a lot of wisdom here.


I can borrow a coles 4038, and pair of Fathead II with cinemag transformer.

for mic pres, I will try both UA and millenia, send to YAMAHA to digi 192 IO. so AD will be 192 IO.

The reason I put yamaha in the list is I only have 2 different mic pres.
so maybe I should use yamaha's pre for XY or some stereo recording technique.

Thanks anyway, I will definitely try what you guys mention here,
and will post what I recorded with various MIC in here.
DH

The coles are really special sounding mics.
I would not worry about unmatched pres with those mics - go with the Mill and the UA.
Make sure you get an even level, I would rather have two great pres with a matched pair of mics than go for a matched but lower quality sound.

[Sonic Lush]

when you have so many heavyweights weighing in....a thread like this makes me read with RAPT attention !

pure gold

because it isn't always just the mechanical parts, ie mics/pres-it's the shared insights gained through experience about whens and whys that are pure gold.

thanks for letting me be a fly on the wall here!

walt

[RickZ]

Attached is clip from recent recording in a local college chapel, 8040's direct to MR-1000.

Sorry for the poor picture.

FWIW,
Rick Z

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Luckily for you-- I have made all kinds of mistakes trying to record violin.

The end of all my searching has led me to the conclusion that what you think of as the sound of a violin is most particularly the sound of a violin filling up the room.

Also, oddly maybe, the sound emanates upward from the bow and body and all that, but what you hear when you get too near to the instrument from above is harsh and intense and grating.

The best results have happened when I was restricted by the geometries of the concert from getting too close, and I was say maybe at least twenty feet away, and my mics were on the same plane as the player, four or five or six feet from the floor.

That's when you hear the singing, fluid, pure tone that you'd call "violin."

You've got all kinds of mics to choose from... I'd steer clear of the "bright" ones and maybe favor the ribbon-styles?

yes... speaking as a professional classical (and other styles) violinist and recording engineer (I record my own sessions so hopefully some helpful info from both sides of the bow here), engineers for eons have screwed up violin recording by micing too close. even a couple feet away is much too close FOR THE MAIN MIC. however for lots of recordings I like to use two mics in a great room or better yet in a hall or at least a church that happens to have great forward sounding acoustics: 1 a few feet above and slightly in front of violin pointing at it and one a couple dozen feet in front of violin pointing at it (from audience pov).

mixing a bit of closer mic in with other mic is an option later that can be great. however I don't always use that mic, sometimes distant mic is all you want, especially with some classical work.

for distant mic a sdc can be great (a GOOD sdc, not a hyped one). for close up a ribbon is great or dynamic or condensor if you're good with eq.

you will definitely need to work with phase between the mics if you use both, violin shows up phase issues faster than anything else.

cheers
Don

[mohthom]

If you feel like you're getting too much HF and grit from the player (and/or the room is pretty dry), don't be afraid to mic the bottom of the instrument (the side opposite the bridge and strings) - a microphone near the players feet pointing up - adjust depending on player's position and the desired sound. I often find that doing this gives me extra resonance and body without the noise of bow-on-strings and excessive HF. The player must stand very still though, and there are rooms and players with which this has not worked at all. I know I'll likely get barraged with reasons this shouldn't/wouldn't/can't work, but those I've recorded with this method (having used it in the mix) have been very happy with it.

A good, quiet LDC is normally the order of the day for this purpose.

I concur with others regarding getting the vast majority of your sound from the room mics.

[Corran]

That's interesting, I would not have thought to do that. I would've tried that on one violin player I recorded in a bluegrass band. A vintage ribbon that couldn't have had much response past 10k and she was still crazy harsh sounding.