So, what's your opinion on remote/live guys undercutting/poaching business?

[equallyscrewed]

So as discussed in the another thread, we thought this deserved its own thread.

Whats the opinions on engineers undercutting or poaching buisness from each other?

Its obv going to differ in different areas, which should make for an interesting thread? So whats your opinions/experiences?

I'll show you mine if you show me yours...here's mine...

The other night I was working live with a pretty well known band who were just starting a tour. They brought their own foh engineer. He was an alright guy, albeit a tad arrogant and above his station. After the gig through the attrocious house PA (we're talking Bose 802s) the band said they hated the mix their own guy done and I knew i could have taken the buisness off him and gained the tour for myself with not much more than a phone number. Did i? Course not. I stood up for him, blamed the PA and said he done a better job than I could have. The way I see it is that friendships between engineers (especially live) can result in MORE buisness than being competitive.

Anyone had experiences where its gone the other way?

xcx

[strewnshank]

I split my time between studio work with bands/artists and corporate AV work. I see way more poaching in the studio world than in AV, which at first seems strange, since AV gigs pay considerably more. But, with added professionalism comes added respect for each other, I suppose. It might be cutthroat getting the gig, and crazy deals are being made (especially these days), but since there are contracts and hefty down payment involved, poaching is a little harder to do with the live AV stuff. Freelancers probably have a different point of view, but I own a lot of my contracts, and I work hard to develop relationships with my clients. It would be logistically very difficult for me to loose an AV gig because someone else were offering it for less, since I have a lot of detailed production knowledge of individual shows (I design Powerpoint templates for some of my customers as well, which brings me even closer to them). Saving even 30% probably wouldn't be worth it to the client, since the new company would have to relearn all the production ins and outs required to get the gig done.

In terms of studio stuff, I've lost a few mixing projects to other guys who turned out to be students. Out of the 4 I can remember, I ended up getting 3 back after the results from the "poacher" were less than adequate. I can see it from the bands perspective though; why not give the cheap guy a shot on the chance that it will come out great? I've started taking down payments for mixing gigs as a result.

Luckily, I've never lost a mix gig on a project that I tracked....and I hope I'm not able to be accused of being a poacher myself!

[equallyscrewed]

Originally Posted by strewnshank

....and I hope I'm not able to be accused of being a poacher myself!

I think thats something we all hope

[xaMdaM]

I started out getting gear to make demo's for my own band... eventually had enough gear, and a bit of experience to do a bit more, and a bit more and a bit more...

Long story short, I eventually made the leap to a decent splitter, and added a coupla key pieces just to primarily track... no mixing, just remote tracking. Then send the client to external studios with the tapes and share the wealth, so to speak. I mean, there wasn't a solid mobile rig based in the area... still isn't, except for mine.

At any rate, fairly quickly, I wasn't getting call backs.

YUP, you guessed it... they were stealing my biz, that I drummed up and was willing to share.

So... I've been building a new state of the art, but modest, facility so I don't have to rely on people screwing me out of business.

I think some of it stems from the arrogance that some of the guys in our small community in this industry, were either greedy, thought I wouldn't find out, or that I was some ****** that didn't have a clue or staying power to survive the initial years.

Now, I'm not saying that my goal is to push them out of business, but hey... if I can offer a real value; good quality at reasonable rates and in a timely manner... I won't shed a tear if they close their doors.

I'm sure some of this is sour grapes, but I can assure you that I had no intention of building a studio when I first started my remote rig. I DIDN'T WANT a studio! I was enjoying the edge that live tracking and remote tracking requires.

But when you loose 75% of your business to guys who are putting your services down, spreading lies, back stabbing you and telling you to your face that they are going to send business your way...

That shit just ain't right.

I'm giving fair warning to the mutha ****ers that pulled this crap.... IT'S ON!

There's MORE than enough biz for me and prolly 10 other good quality mobile rigs. Hell, I expect to put a 2nd mobile rig on the road within a year of opening the new brick and mortar studio... e.g by May or June of next year. Those two mobile rigs could probably feed 5 studios in the area. But I'll tell you one thing for sure... I'll send every bit of that work out of state, rather than give any of these hacks a dime of work.

oh... if any of the other remoter's here are interested in doing some work in the area... lemme know. I'll do my best to share any gigs I can't handle... just be honest with me, and I'll do the same.

[fallforward]

Well I basically started my business by poaching gigs. I was in college and started recording all of my friends, and eventually most peoples, recitals. You could pay the school $250 bucks, for them to come setup a stereo mic and record straight to DAT and give you an unmastered DAT tape of your performance. Then, "Oh what's that? You want a CD? Well that wil be an extra 20$ for each one!" "And its not loud enough too? Well you will have to pay the hourly rate to have it mastered!"

So I decided to offer my service for the same price but I would come and meet with you prior to the concert, go over the program, spot mic stuff to get a good balance, mix and master it and give you 10 CD's.

I eventually had more work than I could do. Needless to say the recording professors were not happy with me. I was doing more work than I was being paid for, but I didn't care I was getting paid to learn. Instead of sitting in a class with a bunch of burned out dudes talking about how good it used to be. I learned more on the internet than I did in 4 semesters from them. I eventually stopped doing as many recitals when I graduated.

Is that considered poaching or just operating a competetive business. All I know is that after awhile I got turned away from a few gigs for 'no reason'.

Good Luck guys!
Robby

[joelpatterson]

The words "undercutting" and "poaching" sure have a rotten kind of stench that the words "competitive" and "blitzkrieg of promotion" don't, but even given that, there's a way to present yourself honestly as opposed to sneaking around and calculatedly shaving your rates to suddenly be the best deal in town.

And rates are just one side of the decahedron-- the level of dedication you bring to the task (which is maybe your "skill" but I also always feel it's how much of "yourself" you're willing to invest in someone else's project-- if you're willing to slave over something, of course it will sound "better" than the guy who is doing it all paint-by-numbers), and THEN the customer service that's a part and parcel of your operation, like how friendly do you sound when someone calls up with complaints?

I always feel like the intangibles are so crucial-- are you amusing to be around? Do you understand the music? Are you willing to do whatever anyone wants with a cheery "yes, ma'am"?

That's what people ought to be basing their hiring decisions on... oh, man, this would be such a great business if it weren't for the customers!

[rumleymusic]

I don't consider taking business from another company "poaching," I consider it presenting potential clients with a better option. I would never openly put down another business to a client, that is just bad ethics, but doing what you have to to stay in business is not always fair to the other guy.

[xaMdaM]

There's a big difference between competition and loosing a job because the client weighed all the options, and subverting the process by price cutting and less than scrupulous business ethics.

I think what we're mainly talking about is when someone purposely seeks another competitor's client by means of false or misleading practices.

[joelpatterson]

False and misleading practices seems so short term and self-destructive, really...

[NorseHorse]

I haven't read the posts yet, but I'd first like to establish the fact that the PREMISE of the thread question is flawed. The flaw is that it assumes clients are non-actors.

To be fair, the thread should really ask:

So, what's your opinion on remote/live clients choosing other engineers who offer different prices/options than you?

The original question is paranoia fodder.

[HobbyCore]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

I haven't read the posts yet, but I'd first like to establish the fact that the PREMISE of the thread question is flawed. The flaw is that it assumes clients are non-actors.

To be fair, the thread should really ask:

So, what's your opinion on remote/live clients choosing other engineers who offer different prices/options than you?

The original question is a paranoia fodder.

Undercutting and poaching are completely different from the concept you present in your question.

There's a huge difference between generally offering a lower price than everyone around you, and actively undercutting your competitors (i.e. "Oh, they do it for 40? I'll do it for 20").

The term poaching is used here to indicate someone using disruptive slander/libel tactics to take your established clients from you. Has nothing to do with prices or options *unless they're also undercutting*

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by equallyscrewed

After the gig through the attrocious house PA (we're talking Bose 802s) the band said they hated the mix their own guy done and I knew i could have taken the buisness off him and gained the tour for myself with not much more than a phone number. Did i? Course not. I stood up for him, blamed the PA and said he done a better job than I could have...

What does everyone think about this?

Seems to be the opposite direction of the I have no talent for politics... thread.

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

Undercutting and poaching are completely different from the concept you present in your question.

Sorry, I didn't feel that libel/slander was or is included in poaching. I was under the impression that "poaching" refers to someone else getting a gig that you used to have - without your permission/recommendation. And as to undercutting, that's just a word that service-providers use when they're frustrated that someone has found a cheaper way to do business. (ZING! - No, there's a little more to it than that, but I'll let others elaborate.)

So... I would suggest that both undercutting and poaching can be done fair and square. I would also suggest that they can be done unethically as well.

[LX3]

I wouldn't deliberately undercut another recording outfit, because you don't s*&t on your own doorstep. There may come a time when you have to ask a competitor to cover a job for you. Or they might have asked you to help them out some time if you hadn't stitched them up. Or you're going to run into them on another show. I'm not out here to make enemies.

I know what I charge, based on my time, kit and expenses, and I know how much flexibility I have within that price. But if the client needs it done below a certain threshold then it's not the job for me.

As for stealing business, I find that most clients will stick with the supplier that they're already happy with. I don't think gaining business by going in cheap is particularly effective, and it can end up making you look desperate.

Now I mention it, this recently happened to another recording company I know. The more they fought for a job, and the more they lowered their price, the less the client was prepared to use them.

It's when a supplier fails to provide an appropriate level of service that clients switch. So I just concentrate on doing the best job I possibly can and wait for clients to find me.

(But then I'm British )

[boojum]

Originally Posted by LX3

<snip>


(But then I'm British )

WTF is that supposed to mean!? I can only assume that you assume you are in some way better because you would not mention it to say you were not. Shame, shame.

[RobAnderson]

To be fair, the thread should really ask:

So, what's your opinion on remote/live clients choosing other engineers who offer different prices/options than you?

No, I think the title of the thread is right on.

There will always be different echelons or tiers of service and pricing, but there is a difference between being an "anklebiter" and a "lowballer."

FWIW, being a "lowballer" is not a sustainable business model in ANY profession. Unfortunately, this particular profession seems to have no shortage of them. I am asked almost daily to reduce even my lowest rates for someone who claims they can't afford it, usually with the tag line "I know someone who can do it for free." I then tell them (nicely) that I simply cannot compete with free and so they are better off going with the free guy.

Healthy competition is fine. Cornering your market is fine. Starting a price war is suicide.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

I haven't read the posts yet, but I'd first like to establish the fact that the PREMISE of the thread question is flawed. The flaw is that it assumes clients are non-actors.

To be fair, the thread should really ask:

So, what's your opinion on remote/live clients choosing other engineers who offer different prices/options than you?

The original question is paranoia fodder.

Norse, why do you have to rain on every parade that comes to town? It seems like every time there's some sort of positive vibe going on you come in and tell everyone that they're "doing it wrong." The title to the thread is what we're talking about here. You obviously are so in your own world that you have no idea what we're discussing. Say something constructive or don't say anything at all.

And to take my own advice I shall start a new post with my experience...

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Norse, why do you have to rain on every parade that comes to town? It seems like every time there's some sort of positive vibe going on you come in and tell everyone that they're "doing it wrong." The title to the thread is what we're talking about here. You obviously are so in your own world that you have no idea what we're discussing.

Haha. So in my own world?

Anyway, I trust that most of you understood that I was encouraging the thread readers/participants to think about the issue in terms of client choices - which is what it boils down to after all, right? It isn't healthy to continually see other engineers as "out to get you".

And yes, I've been undercut. But I don't sweat it. As Rob pointed out, they can't sustain recording like that, so I don't have to worry about being undercut repeatedly. And if I get to a point where I'm continually undercut, then it's a sign to I need to consider whether I'm overcharging.

I guess I'll go back to my own world now... where clients chose engineers and not vice verse...

[bishopthomas]

It's funny that this thread started only a few hours before I got a "sorry, but we're going with the other guy" e-mail. I thought I quoted him a great price and if the "other guy" is bringing half the rig we would have brought then it's definitely a low-ball bid. That's okay, though. When it all falls apart they will be calling again. Or maybe they're standards are lower, and that's fine by me.

I'm mainly in the live sound field and there is a LOT of undercutting and poaching going on right now (at least in my area). We recently found out that a company that gets subcontracted a lot by my friend's company has been going around telling everyone that those subcontracted jobs were HIS gigs. He is also famous for handing out business cards and slandering the contractor on these jobs. People are starting to catch on and his time will come. This same guy uses the knowledge of typical rates of the companies he's subcontracting for to bid on the same jobs as they are.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Anyway, I trust that most of you understood that I was encouraging the thread readers/participants to think about the issue in terms of client choices - which is what it boils down to after all, right?

But that's not what this thread is about. Surely you see the difference between capitalistic competition and undercutting and stealing gigs away from people? If not then that is the naive world that you have created for yourself. Hey, if you're happy living there why move?

[NorseHorse]

Oh, trust me, I see the difference.

But let's make sure were aren't simply calling capitalistic competition "undercutting" and "stealing". These exaggerations are more likely to happen in a personal industry like this. We have a hard time accepting that a client or potential client might chose another engineer/service because our service is so closely tied to OUR IDENTITY, self-concept, and self-worth. So we are inclined to demonize our competition in a personal way and rationalize why we lost the gig. I think this approach is poisonous.

Basically, not everything that lays an egg is a chicken. And if someone is LIBELING you, then it sounds like they're hanging their own noose in the industry. And if someone is UNDERCUTTING you, then there's no need to worry because they won't last, right?

I'm still curious about the original poster's approach. If you know you can do a much better job than someone's current engineer, is it right/wrong to offer your own services? I'd love to hear more opinions.

[bishopthomas]

They're not exaggerations in some instances. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't get what we're discussing. When it's happened to you then you'll understand. When your competition finds out you're charging $500 for your work then bids the same job for $495 then you'll understand. Or when your competition shows up at your gig and starts telling the client that you're not doing it right or they paid too much, then you'll understand. Until then maybe you could not argue with the very nature of every thread that is started here.

And no, the undercutters and slanderizers WON'T last, but they don't have to. There will always be someone else to take their place. The only solution is to do the best job possible, charge what you think is fair, and hope that the client appreciates that.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

...Anyway, I trust that most of you understood that I was encouraging the thread readers/participants to think about the issue in terms of client choices - which is what it boils down to after all, right? It isn't healthy to continually see other engineers as "out to get you"...

But you said...

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

I haven't read the posts yet, but I'd first like to establish the fact that the PREMISE of the thread question is flawed...

You didn't read these posts, but you feel the premise of the thread question is flawed.
How is this an encouragement to the thread participants again?

It's seems like this discussion turn into a dialog stream about you and what you think this thread should be instead of having an adult conversation about the OP topic.

You make good points; can we please just talk about the original topic and not turn this into a debate about how and why NorseHorse (of course) thinks the thread should be written?

I really don't want to turn this into another "good thread gone useless" again.
Please; let us get back to the topic and enjoy the fact that we can communicate freely and professionally. This is not very fair to the good folks of this awesome forum.

PLEASE consider what I'm saying before you flame this option up.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by boojum

WTF is that supposed to mean!? I can only assume that you assume you are in some way better because you would not mention it to say you were not. Shame, shame.

Whoa, sorry, what I was trying to get at is that the Brits aren't typically very good at promoting ourselves. "I wait for the work to come to me" could be my smokescreen for "I can't be bothered to get out there and look for work."

Which can easily result in statents like "it's very quiet, there's not much work around." I.e. everyone else is doing the work and I'm being passed-by.

Which sort of echoes what I think Norse is getting at... Your perception of why you're not getting certain jobs ("they must have seriously undercut me") and the reality of why you didn't get a job may not be the same. People do choose on things other than price. Although customers generally prefer it when suppliers think that everyone else is working cheaper than they are, because it drives rates down. Clients never tend to tell you that you're not charging enough and that they would happily have paid double for what you did.

[Corran]

I am the type of person you might call a "venture capitalist," as I solicit everywhere to anyone. If they've got "someone" doing their recording, I offer to do one next time there is a schedule conflict (or not one) at the same rate and promise better results (I've usually seen the other guys rig consisting of usually one or two mics and an M-audio interface -> laptop). If all goes well I do it, they hear the difference and start using me instead, and then I slowly raise my rates every concert.

I don't think you would call that "poaching," more like offering a better service for the same price.

What do y'all think of that? I mean, if I just let whoever has the gigs keep them until they retire or stop doing it I wouldn't be able to make a living for another 20 years. I have to be proactive and get those clients!

An example: I filled in for a local guy a few months ago for a concert. Before the clients even heard the recording they said they'd be calling me again. They said I was so easy to work with and explained what was going on and asked them what they wanted out of the recording, they were really happy with me. Then they got the much improved recording! Client +1.

[joelpatterson]

Yeah, that's the whole eggroll: you demonstrate your sincerity and work ethic and be personally easygoing and diligent and not just competent but a genius at what you do.

When you've got the customer grateful that you're around to be hired, that's your job security, right there.

[NorseHorse]

Steve Remote: the FIRST thing any debater with at least half a wit does when asked a question is to examine the question itself. It's CRITICAL to ask whether the question is an open construction or whether it has inherent conclusions / premises that already restrict the conversation or misdirect the focus. In this case, I found the question to be placing the responsibility on the wrong party. And as a participant in this thread, I chose to address that before addressing anything else. This is important and good intellectual practice.

Please don't turn this into an "oh NorseHorse, of course" condenscension. Am I the only one who engages in conversations where people disagree? I know I'm not, and I know there are others on this board who know it's OK to disagree or to suggest that a question/test/evaluation/statement/whatever is flawed. I even asked in one of my above posts if anyone from my area has had contrasting experiences. I would appreciate it if you encouraged conversation instead of stifling it.

Time for lunch.

[Remoteness]

Christian Amonson, you were the only one that didn't get the gist of the thread, and had to turn into a discussion about you.

We are here to debate the subject manner, not the delivery system.

I really do not want to turn this into a useless thread.
I got plenty of other matters to deal with (in this forum) and I don't want to be dealing with you and the possibility that I may need to delete your future posts, especially since I consider you one of the main contributing members of this forum.

If you have some to say about the subject say it.
If you must continue to explain why you are you, drop it now.
This is not the time or the place.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by LX3

Which sort of echoes what I think Norse is getting at... Your perception of why you're not getting certain jobs ("they must have seriously undercut me") and the reality of why you didn't get a job may not be the same.

Thanks LX3. If possible, I try and find out why a client or potential client decided not to go with me. Thus far, it's been:

- A friend/relative who may or may not be an engineer offered to do it for free or super cheap. (A form of undercutting/poaching.)
- The artist decided to borrow equipment and try it themselves.
- Another engineer providing a seemingly better deal (undercutting?, poaching?).
- They decided they didn't need a recording that bad.
- They ran out of money this year.

In all of the cases thus far, there hasn't been a reason to get upset, and there hasn't been any badmouthing that I'm aware of. Just very practical considerations. I respect learning engineers or family members for wanting to try recordings on their friends, and I also respect that other engineers may have rates/services that are competitive to mine. If I know the engineer is doing good work, then I certainly don't discourage the client or potential client from their choice. If they're paying the same price, I generally speak up if I feel like the client is taking a serious step backwards (Is this reverse poaching? ). Otherwise, I try and respect the client's decision.

Originally Posted by LX3

Clients never tend to tell you that you're not charging enough and that they would happily have paid double for what you did.

Wonder why?!

EDIT: Oops, that was sarcasm!, but extra clarification below can't hurt.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Wonder why?!

I hoped I'd explained my view on it, but in case I confused people: Paranoia about getting undercut can lead recordists to feel like they have to go in low when quoting. Dangerous, because at the end of the day, you don't really know how much competitors are quoting, and the client's not going to tell you if you were half the price of the next guy.

If the "next guy" later finds out how cheaply you did it, that puts him/her under pressure to drop his/her rates... and a spiral of discounting could start. This is good news for buyers, but eventually it can put good people out of business, leaving only the "bottom feeders".

I'm not suggesting establishing a cartel, I just think you should quote what you think is right and not worry about what other people might or might not be quoting. You've got to eat/pay the rent/put fuel in the car/get your gear repaired. If the client thinks you're the person for the job but has an issue with cost, they'll get back to you and you can decide if you have room to negotiate. And if you've quoted fairly but it's twice as much as they're prepared to pay, and they don't get back to you, it wasn't the job for you.

[equallyscrewed]

Wow, I just posted the topic, went to bed, got up and this has happened.

I hope its cleared up, but ill put my own personal definations of the terms i used. Just so people can put thier own experiences down so others (possibly the new live kids) can learn from them...

Undercutting : This is NOT being competitive. This is finding out how much someone has quoted a client, then charging less than the original engineer to get the gig. The first engineer doesnt have a chance because they dont know how much the undercutter is offering nor will they have a chance to put in a second quote as the client is going to go with the cheapest. This is also a thread for opinions, so who thinks this is "free enterprise" at its finest?

Poaching : Gaining buisness by hanging around and myspace stalking other engineers. When a potential client contacts the engineer, you jump in and take the buisness first. This can be done with undercutting or just getting the boot in first. Personally i reckon this is snidey and anyone doing it looses respect from me.

So whats the chat?

xcx