I have no talent for politics...

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by plus6vu

I'm just glad to know that I'm not the only one experiencing this. There are a few guys here (where I live) that fall into this category. Some of them have been doing this a long time and some that are learning. I don't even mind helping out new guys some if they are willing to learn and realize that they need to. It's the guys that think they know everything and BS everyone into believing that they do that bother me.

I'm with Joel. I try to let my work speak for itself, but sometimes that's not good enough to compete with the professional schmoozers out there. I'm not good at playing politics and I refuse to learn, though that may be my demise. I want well-informed clients that appreciate the work, not clients that I have to convince with BS.

thumbsupthumbsup

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by equallyscrewed

Interesting...

So how do you guys feel about engineers uncutting and poaching buisness off each other? It happens occassionally here but not as often as i can imagine it happening over in the US. I rekon thats not too off topic.

I feel thats worse than shmoozing clients off their own back and luring them in. Kinda like stabbing everyone else in the back.

xcx

Low-balling to get a gig is a whole other story, but we're not discussing that here.
We should start a new thread about that since it's an important issue.

Wanna start it for us?

[equallyscrewed]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Low-balling to get a gig is a whole other story, but we're not discussing that here.
We should start a new thread about that since it's an important issue.

Wanna start it for us?

Why not?

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by Corran

I HATE this part of life in general.

I have a 5 year plan to completely destroy my biggest competitor in the area who has had many years to politick and do completely average and subpar work. I've got to make some people realize the stuff is NOT good enough! And he charges a lot too, so it's not a budget thing!

I got one to top that bro....

(I know part of this should prolly be in the "How I got started" thread...)
I started out getting gear to make demo's for my own band... eventually had enough gear, and a bit of experience to do a bit more, and a bit more and a bit more...

Long story short, I eventually made the leap to a decent splitter, and added a coupla key pieces just to primarily track... no mixing, just remote tracking. Then send the client to external studios with the tapes and share the wealth, so to speak. I mean, there wasn't a solid mobile rig based in the area... still isn't, except for mine.

At any rate, fairly quickly, I wasn't getting call backs.

YUP, you guessed it... they were stealing my biz, that I drummed up and was willing to share.

So... I've been building a new state of the art, but modest, facility so I don't have to rely on people screwing me out of business.

I think some of it stems from the arrogance that some of the guys in our small community in this industry, were either greedy, thought I wouldn't find out, or that I was some ****** that didn't have a clue or staying power to survive the initial years.

Now, I'm not saying that my goal is to push them out of business, but hey... if I can offer a real value; good quality at reasonable rates and in a timely manner... I won't shed a tear if they close their doors.

[equallyscrewed]

So, what's your opinion on remote/live guys undercutting/poaching business?

There we go, lets keep busy

xcx

[rkwyent]

I know i will get flamed for writing this but...

There seems to be a sense of entitlement in most of these posts.

This is life this is healthy competition. New comers enter the maket somehow.

Plus some people has the chops to do the smoozing and networking that some of us hate to do.

Thats whey soem people have business managers. Some of us would rather handle all the geeky/fun stuff.

[rumleymusic]

Perhaps it's time to deprogram their clients.

After the business cards, that is Phase 2

I know i will get flamed for writing this but...

There seems to be a sense of entitlement in most of these posts.

True, that is human nature, to be jealous of the guy who you believe is inferior and who is taking what you believe is yours. I used to sit around and stew angrily about it, but now I think of creative new ways to put myself above the competition. Once you get past the entitlement phase, you can move into attack mode to get your clients.

[Roland]

I know several good engineers, whom I really respect, but they haven't got much work on. I know a few lousy ones who have got good gigs, way above their "chops". IMHO being good is not enough these days or any other past days. As was pointed out above, having gear is not so much of a problem these days as it is cheaper than ever and there are plenty of people prepared to "low ball" jobs who can afford to as they have other sources of income. How good or bad I am, I don't know, can't even bother to try and gauge these days, but clients still come back, and I tend to get good comments on my work and fellow engineers/producers seek my opinion/advice, so I assume I'm probably of the required standard.

Regards


Roland

[timbreman]

It seems to be human nature to listen to hype more than actual results. Sad but True.

This is just my personal experience but about 80% of the ppl I meet that talk alot of hype usually suck.

All too often it seems that the humble ppl are the ones who have actual skills. It's all idiocracy in the end.

[MichaelPatrick]

I re-entered the business after being out for a long long time, but was fortunate to meet the right person at the right time to land a few good contracts right away, replacing a guy who retired after 30 years with these clients!

Now I have to keep their business; there are no guarantees but there is competition.

My goal is to make everything sound like a record; make the big events sound like great records and make the little stuff sound better than it has any right to. By continually improving my techniques and production processes I'd like to build capacity to take on more clients when the time is right. I prefer to win new business by referral, on the strength of my portfolio -- letting the work speak for itself as some have already said.

P.S... Today I ran across something I recorded 27 years ago. I was blown away to see this old recording remastered for CD. Hearing some of the tracks again made my day. It's an unexpected gift from the past that's going into my new portfolio.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4071827-post59.html

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

So, let me get this straight; are you saying it's totally cool if you lost a bunch of dates to an engineer that had no technical chops, but had a great rap?

If I lost gigs in a situation like this, it's time to start asking some questions.

What is he/she offering that I'm not? Why did the client switch?
What was their in, and how can I use that angle in the future?
Do my current clients feel comfortable talking to me about changing things?

No, I wouldn't be happy. But remember, this is a business, and maybe there is more to running a business than just being as good as your last gig?

And to supplement rkwyent's comment, I think it's important to remember that the CLIENT is the one who is entitled - entitled to chose to work with whomever they please. If someone with lesser quality is getting work that you aren't, then it's time to step inside the mind of the client. Sometimes education (e.g. "Here, listen to this comparison.") can help the situation, but sometimes the technical side of things isn't as relevant as us audiophiles would like. Sometimes people just like to work with the person who is more amicable. Or they work with another service because they were in the phonebook, but you were only online, or vice versa.

Here in VA/DC, I don't feel like the situation is as dire. The remote scene is very different from the home studio scene, and most of the recordists have been doing it for years. Even the engineers on the school circuit are using top-of-the-line gear and decent techniques. Anyone else in the area care to chime in? Especially if you feel otherwise.

[boojum]

OK, let's start off with life ain't fair. There will always be idiots who do well and geniuses who do not. But we all need to know how to get along with people to add the sizzle to the steak. The problem is when it is all sizzle and no steak, and it is the other guy who is getting away with it.

Maybe we have all pulled one off that we did not deserve. But it rankles us when some other guy gets away with it.

As for the folks who know nothing, have huge budgets and hire the jokers who breathe bullshit, well, there you go again, life is not fair. Look at the movie touted here, "Before the Music Dies." The answer is, " . . . show up naked, with glitter . . . and pager."

I think it was Joel who said it is a dog eat dog world out there, so get used to the taste of dog.

[timbreman]

Originally Posted by boojum

OK, let's start off with life ain't fair. There will always be idiots who do well and geniuses who do not. But we all need to know how to get along with people to add the sizzle to the steak. The problem is when it is all sizzle and no steak, and it is the other guy who is getting away with it.

Maybe we have all pulled one off that we did not deserve. But it rankles us when some other guy gets away with it.

As for the folks who know nothing, have huge budgets and hire the jokers who breathe bullshit, well, there you go again, life is not fair. Look at the movie touted here, "Before the Music Dies." The answer is, " . . . show up naked, with glitter . . . and pager."

I think it was Joel who said it is a dog eat dog world out there, so get used to the taste of dog.

For a Snark is a Boojum you see?

[xaMdaM]

It may be a dog eat dog world out there, but I'm tired of wearing Milk Bone underwear...

[fallforward]

If you have trouble schmoozing (In my opinion) it is best to find the non recording stuff that you are good at talking about talk about that first. When I meet prospective clients I talk about whatever music they play whether it is classical or jazz, or whatever. I ask them about what other hobbies they have other than music, or talk sports. I make friends on a human level before talking to them about having me record their next recital/concert/whatever. This works great in any type of sales position.

Maybe that's not what is being discussed here, but I think that's all politicking is, finding a way to convey that, "I am just like you and I have something you need, so you should get it from me."

I don't work on nearly the scale you guys do so I am sure it is different, but that's what the world looks like from my stoop!

Good Luck guys!
Robby

[memphisindie]

TOP THIS:
My expartner, schmoozed a local big star/ex huge star and Dave Lee Roth prototype (guess who) into booking with us, and we mixed their "hit" that was going to sell them to their new label and it worked, they called us from the limo freaking about how good it sounded, yadaya.
While we were tracking, another older more established studio that begins with "A" tried to snipe him out of our place and book him in theirs. What BUTTHOLES! But that's par for the course here. There are a few good engineers here, but, a plethora of lame ass engineers here, they can't mix, don't care, work for nothing and push out crap, and usually the thing that gets them the gig is a powdery substance inhaled by the boss and cheap labor, at least the last guy that pushed me out used that technique. They have had pitiful few gigs since then.
Yehoo, the south.
Help me.

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

TOP THIS:

Dayam... now THAT's smarmy!!





DEFINED!


OK, so rather than solely defining the issue, (not exclusively directed at memphisindie) how do you combat the problem effectively?

I my case, it was sell my house, buy a new one where I had land and a building, and dump a ton of money into a studio to have a turnkey operation.... and I STILL know I'm gonna have to deal with someone tryin' to snipe my gigs and my clients.

Sure some of it is just plain the gift of gab, and I like the pointer Robby had of talking about things of interest to get a common ground before the technical stuff.

Is it maybe the art of closing the deal and getting a deposit?

Is it worth trying to get a signed contract? (for those that actually use a contract)

I know running a business doesn't come natural for a lot of us.... or at least it's not as natural as running the gear.

So anyone else wanna' give up some pointers?

[memphisindie]

Work with someone, add a team player, get a dedicated sales person and some interns or a receptionist to answer the phone PROPERLY. Forget politics, forget working for less, forget doing less because you can't afford to do more, the way to beat competition is to blow them out of the water and that means selling more clients and if you aren't a sales guy, GET ONE. You keep turning out the quality product and let a salesman worry about bringing in the work.
Or if you are billing yourself as a freelancer with a track record, get an agent or agency to get your gigs for you.
If you have no track record, focus on getting one.
Rinse and repeat.

[Remoteness]

This thread goes hand in hand with > I'm not a recording engineer/producer/mixer/star, I just play one on TV...

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

This thread goes hand in hand with > I'm not a recording engineer/producer/mixer/star, I just play one on TV...

I had to get back in my chair!!!

[MBBCFP]

Originally Posted by Corran

I HATE this part of life in general.

I have a 5 year plan to completely destroy my biggest competitor in the area who has had many years to politick and do completely average and subpar work. I've got to make some people realize the stuff is NOT good enough! And he charges a lot too, so it's not a budget thing!

There is that same problem in my area. There is this old guy ("old" because he's slightly older than I) who does almost all the serious remote recording. I know NorseHorse has snagged some of his former stuff and I have a few, too. His rep is getting more tarnished as folks hear what can be done instead of believing he is the only game in town. It is a slow process, but we are retiring him.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by rkwyent

I know i will get flamed for writing this but...

There seems to be a sense of entitlement in most of these posts.

This is life this is healthy competition. New comers enter the maket somehow.

Plus some people has the chops to do the smoozing and networking that some of us hate to do.

Thats whey soem people have business managers. Some of us would rather handle all the geeky/fun stuff.

Good post.....BUT

There is a company near here that does a lot of the school recordings around the state. The guy who runs the place is very nice. He knows nothing about music or audio but he is one he!! of a good marketer. His remote recording setup consists of a Tascam portable DAT recorder, a pair of used microphones he purchased off the web, a pair of headphones and he charges big bucks for his recordings. He also hires other people who have no idea of what they are doing to do recordings for him. He goes to all the music and school conventions and has a very snazzy web page. He is all about the marketing and knows nothing about the technical or artistic side of the business and he is making a very comfortable living off his endeavors. More power to him. Lately he has been getting some competition from people who really DO know what they are doing and see the school market as an untapped resource. It will be interesting to see how this all develops.

There is also a company that charges big bucks for recording concerts. They come with minimal equipment set up in the middle of the hall and basically do a lousy recording which they sell to the performers as a "aural record of the event" which is a way of saying that they don't do any editing and just hand the DAT tape or the CD to the group at the end of the concert in return for the check. They too seem to be doing well.

Neither of these two companies is doing anything wrong but they are also not doing things that would make any real remote audio engineer green with envy. The groups and individuals they record seem happy and after all isn't that what it is all about? They both do very aggressive marketing and both have very well done websites that use a lot of words that appeal to their target audiences.

There are also individuals around here who do amazing work, who have the engineering chops and the musical chops and who provide amazing recordings of events for reasonable prices. Most of these people are doing this part time as they cannot afford to do it full time. Their recordings are amazing, they do superior work and they are great people but they lack the marketing skills and the chutzpah to get paid like the two companies mentioned above. Who is to say which is the right way.

Good topic!