alternative to Digidesign SYNC I/O

[klaukholm]

Is there a solid alternative to the Digidesign SYNC I/O out there?
I need something that can send and receive videosync and WC plus passing smpte-timecode on to PTHD.

I would also like the unit to have 6 WC out with a few of the WC capable of sending 1x sync (44/48)while the others send 2X (88/96)

Needless to say it has to be rock solid and capable of driving long wc cable runs

[surflounge]

they make something that will work for you

Antelope Audio

[klaukholm]

It does not seem to pass on smpte-timecode to PT.

I just clarified my original post.

[surflounge]

I'll be at the NAB show in a couple weeks, and check out the gear that might work for you
NAB Show - Digital Media Industry Event for Audio, Video, Film & Communications Professionals

[fifthcircle]

The only company that I can think of that might have something comparable is Brainstorm Electronics Brainstorm Electronics - Intelligent Solutions for the Recording and Post-Production Studios. But even with them, you'd probably have to use multiple boxes to get the results you need. They have a great clock that can resolve to video signals and black and some great time code tools, but I don't believe there is anything that can do it all.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

thanks Ben,
The Brainstorm is one the boxes I like the most.
Like you say it seems that I will have to have a Digi sync plus a master clock.
As I am most always pressed for time when setting up PT on location, I am trying to minimize the number of such boxes I have to deal with.
This is so much easier in PMX.

It is odd that the SYNC I/O does not have atleast 4 WC outputs.

BTW, why is it that so many film crews insist on audio syncing to them rather than the other way around?

[Bob Olhsson]

As far as I know ProTools still uses the MIDI time code protocol under the hood. You need to set the reference to external and feed it digital audio that is locked to video. Then a time code to MTC converter feeding a MIDI interface will handle the time code. Finally you need to do a sync test and enter the right number of samples to offset the latency of the MIDI interface.

I've used a time code DAT machine as a very effective synchronizer.

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

BTW, whyt is it that so many film crews insist on audio syncing to them rather than the other way around?

This is definitely not correct. None of the cameras that I know have calibrated crystals for their TC clock to the extent that high end audio recorders do. Primarily, it is the use of the correct equipment to provide the master clock, whether that is the master clock in the audio recorder or a separate box like the Denecke / Ambient options. The other factor to consider is "chain of command" when it comes to audio - more of tradition and standards. Camera's didn't use to have audio on board and needed some method of sync / pilot to keep their motors in sync... not just to the audio tape machine, but IPS of the tape itself for proper speed (really a singular function of each other). Modern workflows could have legitimate reasons for slaving audio to the camera, such as enabling chase lock recording... to quell the desire of lazy editors perhaps? Without such a legitimate reason to demand master clock with the camera, it is simply an unprofessional request. I guess it then falls onto you whether you are unprofessional yourself and just go with the flow, or actually try to put your foot down.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

This is definitely not correct. None of the cameras that I know have calibrated crystals for their TC clock to the extent that high end audio recorders do. Primarily, it is the use of the correct equipment to provide the master clock, whether that is the master clock in the audio recorder or a separate box like the Denecke / Ambient options. The other factor to consider is "chain of command" when it comes to audio - more of tradition and standards. Camera's didn't use to have audio on board and needed some method of sync / pilot to keep their motors in sync... not just to the audio tape machine, but IPS of the tape itself for proper speed (really a singular function of each other). Modern workflows could have legitimate reasons for slaving audio to the camera, such as enabling chase lock recording... to quell the desire of lazy editors perhaps? Without such a legitimate reason to demand master clock with the camera, it is simply an unprofessional request. I guess it then falls onto you whether you are unprofessional yourself and just go with the flow, or actually try to put your foot down.

I mostly see this on projects where we provide the audio rental. I typically try to help make sure everything is working, but I do not offer an opinion on how they choose to do things. When we get called to do the audio, we leave the protools at home, bring the pyramix and generate timecode and sync from PMX which in turn clocks off our master converter or master clock. If we get called it is invariably a project where the music comes first and picture second so we call the shots. If it is a rental it can be anything.

I ran into this situation friday on a rental for a large film and audio crew from LA that is here. This was a non-music event as far as I could tell.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

The only company that I can think of that might have something comparable is Brainstorm Electronics Brainstorm Electronics - Intelligent Solutions for the Recording and Post-Production Studios. But even with them, you'd probably have to use multiple boxes to get the results you need. They have a great clock that can resolve to video signals and black and some great time code tools, but I don't believe there is anything that can do it all.

--Ben

+1 on the Brainstorm DCD-8 w/ VSG.

I believe this box can do must of the stuff you need to accomplish, but check out their website to be certain.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

The only company that I can think of that might have something comparable is Brainstorm Electronics Brainstorm Electronics - Intelligent Solutions for the Recording and Post-Production Studios. But even with them, you'd probably have to use multiple boxes to get the results you need. They have a great clock that can resolve to video signals and black and some great time code tools, but I don't believe there is anything that can do it all.

--Ben

+1 on the Brainstorm DCD-8 w/ VSG.

This box can do some of the things you need to accomplish.
IMO, it's a great starting point.

[klaukholm]

Thanks again guys!

So we have basically established that I will still need the SYNC I/O.

The brainstorm seems very nice, but it could be hard to get one to demo here.
Have you guys had any experience with the Mutec MC3-2.1 or MC3-2.2?

Are these more or less on par with the Brainstorm?

[fifthcircle]

We have a Mutec clock at one of the venues where I work. Seems to work ok, but from a functional standpoint, the DCD-8 does a lot more. I haven't shot it out versus my Brainstorm.

The cool thing about the DCD 8 is the ability to send out completely asynchronous clocks that are resolved to the same source. In other words, you could output 44.1 and 96 KHz resolved to the same blackburst signal.

You can also use it to clean up and regenerate a crappy clock signal from any one of a number of inputs- even including firewire.

The only issue compared to the Sync I/O is that it isn't a timecode box. From a digital sync standpoint, you can do anything with it and it sounds darned good.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

Ben, thanks a lot!


Does the Brainstorm have swithcable 110v/230v power?

[Remoteness]

You will not regret it one bit!

The DCD-8 has a voltage swing from 90 VAC - 264VAC.

[fifthcircle]

If memory serves me right, there is a wall wart for power.

Also, the video sync card is an extra option. If you order, you'll need to make sure that they include that for you.

If you have difficulties getting one, let me know. I work with the company that distributes them in the US. If necessary, I can put you in touch with them.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

I actually found a dealer and laid hands on a DCD8 today.
It does indeed look good and it's light weight!

For fellow euroslutz:
Brainstorm is many EU countries sold by dealers that sell Massenburg.
The bad news is that list price is almost 35% higher than in the US

[Greg Curtis]

I may have missed it, but why not just get a SYNC I/O?

[klaukholm]

Greg, apart from being able to import smpte to PTHD it is a shoddy box IMO.

I would want to avoid using the Digi unit as a master clock.
I need to feed 1fs clock to half my system and 2fs to the other half.

We also have a rig that needs to hook up to PMX half the time and PT the other half and the digi sync makes this more complicated than I would like.

Like I said before, based on the info received here, I may give the Brainstorm a go and simply get a digi sync in addition for those few times we need PT for video work.

[Greg Curtis]

Cool. Great info, I wasn't aware of those issues, so I'm glad I asked.

I have a PT HD3 rig, Big Ben, and an SR15 Distripalyzer. No Sync I/O. I was wondering if I even needed a Sync I/O for video work, since I mainly run QT files without any issues.

[BenFranske]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

The only issue compared to the Sync I/O is that it isn't a timecode box. From a digital sync standpoint, you can do anything with it and it sounds darned good.

So would my impression be correct that if you combined the DCD-8 with the MOTU Timepiece AV you would be able to do just about everything the SYNC I/O does? Clocking as well as tracking SMPTE in Pro Tools?

I was considering a Sync I/O for an application where I need to get both timecode and accurate clocking into Pro Tools but I really like the DCD-8.

[BenFranske]

Looks like I killed another thread I'll give it another try though because I'm really curious and would like to avoid buying the SYNC I/O if I can do it with the DCD-8 and a Timepiece AV.

[fifthcircle]

I can't speak with much knowledge of the timepiece and Pro Tools HD. One of the old studios I used to work at had a Pro Tools TDM system with 888 I/O's etc... Instead of the sync I/O (can't remember the official name), they used a MTP AV instead and it seemed to work fine. I don't know enough about HD, however, to be able to say how well another timecode device would provide sync abilities with an HD system. I usually rent HD systems when I need them and the people that I rent from usually clock each 192 I/O individually from the Big Ben that they provide. They tell me that things seem to lock better when they do that and therefore the system is more stable. That being said, I am rarely using time code these days on my gigs (concert recordings) so I haven't had to figure stuff out.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I can't speak with much knowledge of the timepiece and Pro Tools HD. One of the old studios I used to work at had a Pro Tools TDM system with 888 I/O's etc... Instead of the sync I/O (can't remember the official name), they used a MTP AV instead and it seemed to work fine. I don't know enough about HD, however, to be able to say how well another timecode device would provide sync abilities with an HD system. I usually rent HD systems when I need them and the people that I rent from usually clock each 192 I/O individually from the Big Ben that they provide. They tell me that things seem to lock better when they do that and therefore the system is more stable. That being said, I am rarely using time code these days on my gigs (concert recordings) so I haven't had to figure stuff out.

--Ben

Ben,
good tidbit of info on clocking the 192's individually. This is essentially why we have to get a clock.
Back when we were on PMX only, we had no problems with t connectors and the master AD running the show, but once PT cam into the picture a clock distributor has been needed more often than not.

I will take the liberty of referring the scheme you describe above as a "star configuration" quoting Grimm.

Essentially this is why we need a clock that can do 1fs as simultaneously with 2fs.
Our DAD PT/madi interface (a 192 as far as PT sees it, but with only clock input)
needs 44/48 clock to operate properly as it mimics a 192.
Our Euphonix ADs DA's and AES out madi interfaces all need clock at the rate they operate i.e. 96 as they set samplerate automatically to the incoming clock rate.

It does not get easier when we add a 192D to the mix for our Bricasi inserts.

The problem I have had with PT and timecode is that once you need the sync, the system is no longer rock solid as you add an unknown piece of harware which is untested on your system.

[fifthcircle]

Yeah- the company I deal with for my Pro Tools rentals is DesignFX. They are routinely providing systems as flypacks and in their [awesome] truck for all sorts of big hollywood functions where failure simply is not an option. I've gotten great systems from them and they have really figured out how to get the most out of the systems that they rent.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

While we are on the topic,
is there anything else they are doing to keep these systems 100% solid?

Any specific versions they are on, lengths of digilinks etc?

I do not know if we have a problem with our core card or something else, but PT is not nearly as solid as PMX. I am hoping the brainstorm will fix that, but you never know.

[fifthcircle]

I've noticed a number of the usual mac tweaks and the other thing is that the system is very clean. Pro Tools, short cuts to and software for killing the preference files when needed and often a copy of disc warrior is on the machine. Other than that, the recording rigs they send out are very lean and mean. The mix rigs get purpose built with plugins specifically for the gig.

The systems there, though, are constantly being rebuilt for the gigs they are going out on.

I know a lot of other people that are pretty careful to set the maximum record time as well. Seems that PT will allocate disc based on a maximum record time. If you are going to only be recording 10-15 min at a time, then set that time for 30 min or an hour tops. It can help with disc issues. If you are doing concert stuff, you'll obviously need a longer time, but the allocation from what i've seen tends to be several hours.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

Thanks Ben

[fifthcircle]

Here's an old thread with many suggestions:

Mac tweaks?

--Ben

[yrplace]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

+1 on the Brainstorm DCD-8 w/ VSG.

I believe this box can do must of the stuff you need to accomplish, but check out their website to be certain.

Steve,

How do you have the Brainstorm and the Sync I/o configured? I know the Sync I/O has to be the master control for PT, but I'm not sure you can slave it to the Brainstorm's wordclock.

If I am recalling correctly you have to feed the sync i/o's clock out to the Brainstorm and then control all your converters with the Brainstorms clock.....true?