Broadcast with Digidesign D-command

[deardaddy]

Can someone help me with this ?

I'm planned to do several music television shows where there will be live music plus interviews. There will be 2 consoles, one main Stagetec Aurus console in a small HD OB van wich will do the broadcast (receive the music mix and will do the interview mix) and another console in a room somewhere in the concert hall.

As the music can be remixed later, I plan to use a Pro tools systems to record the music, I was wondering if I could also do snapshots of my mixes in a Digi console to use later in post.
So I would use an D-command to mix the music and record on an HD rig then bring back this session in post and just finetune the mix I already did.

Hope my explanations are clear enough.

Thanks for your time.

Pascal

[Remoteness]

Some bumpage for Pascal...

[deardaddy]

Thank you Steve ....

[Roland]

I'm not sure that I completely understand your original post, but I will take a stab.

As I understand, you wish to mix the show live at the theatre and record to protools for subsequent mixing and release/distribution.

The concert is already going to broadcast live with an OB truck.

You are planning to record onto pro-tools and are thinking about using a D-Command console for your theatre mix?

The things I would be a little wary off are things like manipulating pro-tools whilst recording too much. Although Pro-tools is a wonderful system, substantiating plugin's etc, will lead to audio interrupts. Whether these will physically interrupt the audio recorded I can't tell you, I'm not brave enough to experiment and find out.

If you are looking to do a live mix and record to Pro-tools I would thoroughly recommend the Digidesign Venue console which can record directly into Pro-tools. Unfortunately you can't call that mix back to control the Pro-tools, however you could recall the mix snapshot and record your "Venue" mix. Perhaps you can give a little more detail on the specific application and what you need to achieve in terms of speed/result?


Regards


Roland

[deardaddy]

Thanks Roland for your reply.

I realize that the D-command thing is not the best thing as recording in PT is great but is pretty heavy on the computer, so mix at the same time might lead to problems.

In fact, I thought that you could work with a Venue system then take the "Venue session" in PT with another control surface in post.
I thought you could start in post the session where you left it at the live gig with the Venue system.
I thought you could recall the Venue snapshots in a post PT system and work on another control surface directly.

[Roland]

The difference between the Icon (in whatever flavour you buy) and the Digidesign Venue is that the Venue passes audio and contains plugins, effects, etc, Icon's are controllers for Protools and peripherals and as such are just very fancy controllers. Consequently if you mix something "live" on Icon the mix is potentially preserved in protools (as long as you save it). If you record a show with Venue and protools, the effects, eq/compression etc applied reside only on Venue. You could reverse the inputs of Venue at a later time and replay the session through it recording the subsequent output as a mix, however, you only have snapshot automation so all your fader rides would have to be done within protools, pre eq, compression.

Althought I have no hands on experience with the Icon surfaces, I don't doubt that they are great interfaces, however, used live I could see some potential issues with "horsepower" under the hood during record and wanting to make mix changes which might effect the systems performance/stability. This is not the case with the Venue as it has it's own dedicated processing power and the pro-tools connected to it is only interested in tracklaying, unfortunately you would need to start your mix from scratch later (unless you performed some tweaks on the day/night of the show).

I personally bought a Venue system with a Pro-tools back end for this specific job and I am delighted with it.

With all these systems it gives you a lot of flexibility, this usually comes with the additional price of complexity in the way we have to work.

Perhaps you can tell us more about the specific type of work you are doing and what you need to end up with in terms of final destination/formats?


Regards


Roland

[deardaddy]

Roland,

Here's what I have to do :
Live concert with interview between the songs on another stage.
It broadcasted live but recorded as if it was live.
There will be a small HD OB van with an Auratuc stage tec console (too small to handle live music), I was planning to install another console just for the music mix somewhere else in the hall.

We usually multitrack that kind of program for later post work as it not broacasted live.

As we use PT in post, I was thinking of a way to do this music mix within a PT session which we could take back to post to fine tune the mix.

Final mix is in stereo.

At first, I thought that a Venue system was compatible with "regular" PT sessions but it is not the case.

AlphaMutt told me that they were doing that king of job with D-commands and D-controls at the show then take back the PT session in post to fine tune the mix.

Any idea is welcome

Pascal

[Roland]

Hi Pascal,

Got it!

I would be a little bit wary of anyone saying that this is good to do directly using a D command. I'm not saying it isn't possible, however, the risk for it falling over during the "live" broadcast is too real, remeber not only are you asking the pro-tools to track the session (I don't know, but I'm guessing somewhere between 20 and 50 tracks) but also do a mix live on the fly! Sure it's possible, but just my gut feeling is that it's too much at once and asking for problems. It of course is tempting to walk away from the theatre and only have a few tweaks to do before the final, but if the system drops you lose everything.

The only thing I didn't understand from your previous posts was if the "live" mix done with the console at the show was to provide a FOH mix for the audience or not, if this is the case I would happily recommend the Venue, but you would still need to mix afterwards, no easy solution, not if you want to have some risk management.

Regards


Roland

[deardaddy]

Roland,

Thanks for the reply.
AlphaMutt is doing exactly what I need to do, but he uses another PT system as backup.
I'll try to get more info on that.
If AlphaMutt reads this, maybe he will be able to shime in and give some infos.

[AlphaMutt]

Hello.

I've been a big fan of this forum and till now have not posted. Kudos to Steve for taking this on.

I have responded to several posts via PM in order to aid my fellow remote brothers. But for this one I thought a quick post would work well.

I have for many years and still continue in my present company to record and mix using D-Control and D-Command surfaces networked to ProTools systems. They have been highly reliable and quite stable. In many instances I have chosen to record on separate master and safety PT systems and use the PT mix system by itself as a stand alone mixer, but as of recent have been doing many live broadcast shows recording and mixing on the same system to aid in turn around for re-air. We use Mac Pro's outfitted with enough RAM and internal SATA 1T drives.

If you feel you will exceed DSP limits in the standard HD3 system, add more cards in an expansion chassis. If you need more IO then that is also simply solved. 192's allow for great connection, SSL makes a MADI IO that works wonderfully and I hear tales of newer types of IO coming available later this year.

All major consoles these days are "for lack of a better term" networked components. The surface speaks to the computer. There is a DSP rack and multiple IO. Well that's what ProTools is but with an extremely well designed editing package and more.

I recently did a job with an engineer who was comfortable sitting in front of an SSL desk. I populated the entire session, 98 inputs with Waves SSL channel strips. Instantly he was at home and mixed a great show. I've done sessions with as many as 168 inputs without a single hiccup. 5.1 absolutely no problem. Actually I've found it much easier then some other desks right now. I can create multiple 5.1 outputs. Downmix through Waves or other processors. Unwrap with other processors, all totally recallable within a session.

Now a disclaimer ...... There are drawbacks to the ProTools environment for live mixing right now. You can only control 72 channels of preamp from the system. Many of the cooler mixing functions are not available in input mode but if you build the mixer with aux tracks and record on other systems for import later on, those functions become available. These types of things have to be taken into account when choosing the how you want to approach the gig. But in the tough world of "this needs to be turned around in 12 hours for air" it's very hard to beat this type of workflow.

Again thanks for letting me put my two cents in and learn and chat with this group.

Joel Singer
Music Mix Mobile

[Remoteness]

Excellent first post Joel!

I'm so happy to see you posting here.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[deardaddy]

Thank you so much Joel for your post.


Pascal

[Roland]

I must bow to Joels experience here, but I would say (as he does) that you need a large system (using expansion chassis) and possibly plenty of RAM (applicable only too Mac).

Perhaps Joel will give a little more detail as there would be some limitations to the operation (for instance you couldn't insert a plugin on the fly without causing audio to drop) and I'm sure that there are certain do's and don't. Latency may have to be set higher that may or may not be an issue.


Regards


Roland

[AlphaMutt]

Thanks Steve. It's been a pleasure reading these posts. I've learned a great deal from listening to other posters. I hope in the future to be able to chime in with some of my experiences.

I've been a strong advocate of what Pascal is trying to do and have been mixing and broadcasting music events since 2005 when the first major show we did with D-Control was the MTV Video Music Awards from Miami. Great memories of a show well executed with the exception of Hurricane Katrina (that was really bad).

We currently have not jumped to PT8. I normally wait for many CS updates to have been released in order to assure better reliability.

We have Mac Pro Quad Core machines with at least 5G or RAM in each. Each machine is outfitted with one system drive 250G and (3) 1T SATA audio storage drives. We also record FW800 to multiple drives on many shows for clients to walk away with media. App. 32 tracks per drive when we do. The SATA will take a lot more. Each mixing system has 6 DSP cards in a Magma expansion chassis. I have also done smaller 72 - 80 channel shows with HD4. I can also tell you that previously I had done live radio mixing at BB Kings in NYC with an HD3 / Control 8 system. It was a bit more difficult but worked like a charm. One hand on the faders the other on the mouse. You do need a Big Knob or something similar in that application for AFL or PFL solo. SIP bad.

Follow the recommendations for system setup and usage on a Mac. Digidesign really does have a handle on how to make a Mac run smoothly. i.e. turning sleep off, screensaver off, etc. It works.

Snapshots are easy. The console must be in latch record mode. You can toggle a preference to allow latch prime in stop. Even with audio tracks in input you can store snapshots. You just can't recall until you come out of input. Sometimes not good on a live show. But also not possible if the transport is engaged and you're recording. I have done this over a three hour recording and was able to recall any snapshot later on in post. If you want the desk to act more like a digital recallable console you'll need to use a separate recorder and populate aux tracks instead of audio tracks. Then later just import audio to new tracks and buss through to the old for mixing on the snapshots you've stored.

As mentioned by Roland, you can't populate plug ins while in record or without causing the audio to hiccup for a second. But during setup and rehearsal you're going to be doing most of this and it won't be an issue during the record / performance. Also latency is not an issue. Today with HD video, audio is usually not the culprit in the latency world. With my current system at 48K (most TV is done at this rate) from preamp through to output I am sitting at app. 280 samples.

I hope this has been helpful. Yes, I am a huge fan of ProTools and ProTools mixing. We do have quite a few plug ins but like outboard in general you find some really great ones and gravitate towards them always. Waves V-Series and SSL (a must), TC NonLin, Digi ReVibe and Echoboy are my go to favs, to name a few. Our clients have been very happy in the time it saves them in post, and love the concept. We do have a great front end on all our systems for recording. Good mics and preamps are the trick as most will agree.

All the best .......

Joel
Music Mix Mobile

[deardaddy]

Thank you very Joel for these explanations.
I read your post just before I went to sleep, I shouldn't have done that, I woke up at 4 in the morning and went to my studio to test what you explained :-)

Thanks again for your time


Pascal

[Remoteness]

Pascal,

That's the story of my life and why I never get any sleep.

Originally Posted by deardaddy

Thank you very Joel for these explanations.
I read your post just before I went to sleep, I shouldn't have done that, I woke up at 4 in the morning and went to my studio to test what you explained :-)

Thanks again for your time


Pascal

[deardaddy]

I spent 2 wonderfull hours trying new things, I learnt a lot, happy I woke up so early ....


Pascal

[AlphaMutt]

Good to hear Pascal. I hope this all works out well for you.

Joel
Music Mix Mobile

[Indrestudios]

Originally Posted by AlphaMutt

You do need a Big Knob or something similar in that application for AFL or PFL solo. SIP bad.

Hey Joel, thanks for your great insight. Can you elaborate how to handle solo-ing channels during a live recording. With the factory settings in PT 7.4, pressing any SOLO button kills the 2 mix. Am I missing a secret routing window that allows you to preserve the two mix, and route your solo to another output?

-MC

[deardaddy]

I would be also interested in knowing the solution to that problem.

By the way, I did my second real life experience of mixing live music through PT and it worked like a charm.
It is so good to have all these plug ins at hand, I was happy and the producer was so happy too, we really heard the difference from our previous mix made in our regular OB vans.

Pascal

[AlphaMutt]

Pascal

Glad to hear things worked out. AFL or PFL with D-Command is fairly easy since you have XMON in the loop. You actually pick a stereo output in the IO Output page as the AFL / PFL source. Then you connect that physical output of the 192 (analog) to the XMON TB/Utilities connector AFL/PFL input. The rest is handled by the XMON when you are in AFL or PFL and solo a channel. It interrupts the main output to the speakers without affecting your mix outputs.

Without XMON you have to do the same thing in the output IO page and assign what to mute when the AFL / PFL becomes active. With a big knob you can assign to inputs to monitor on one output (speakers). When you hit afl / pfl the main output to the speakers is muted while the afl / pfl output becomes active. It switches and you'll see it on the 192 outputs. It's a work around but also works fine.

Joel

[deardaddy]

Thank you Joel for your advice, I will put that in action ASAP.

The funny thing about my last experience when I mixed a live event through PT is that I rediscovered the joy of mixing music for a TV broadcast.
I finally have now good tools to mix as if I was in my studio.

Take care


Pascal