SMPTE-sync playback with ProTools LE?

[StefanM]

Hello,

not really a recording question - but you PT cracks might know...
Is it possible to sync PTLE (not HD) to incoming SMPTE with the
DV-option software and the old SSD (SMPTE Slave Driver)?
This would of course mean MTC out of the SSD and into the 002R Midi in.

I was asked to operate for a show on a car trade fair and have to decide
if I need to rent a HD system for the job or not.

Thank you
Stefan

[StefanM]

On a second thought this setup lacks of a clock connection as the 002R does not have WC-in and the SSD has no S/P-DIF clock out...
So position via MTC o.k. but no varispeed clock info - or am I missing something?

Thanks again
Stefan

[Remoteness]

No, your second thought is correct.

[Jim vanBergen]

There is a great deal of discussion of using the digital I/O's on Digi 002/001 with LE to sync, but I don't know anyone "pro" who trusts it, since you fly by the seat of your pants without a word or video clock source to lock to. Anyone have experience actually doing this? I have always rented HD systems or utilized hard disk recorders with sync instead of considering LE systems, though I own a Digi 002 and would not hesistate to use it if it was robust. I thought that was the reason Digi made these LE versions this way!

JvB

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

There is a great deal of discussion of using the digital I/O's on Digi 002/001 with LE to sync, but I don't know anyone "pro" who trusts it, since you fly by the seat of your pants without a word or video clock source to lock to. Anyone have experience actually doing this? I have always rented HD systems or utilized hard disk recorders with sync instead of considering LE systems, though I own a Digi 002 and would not hesistate to use it if it was robust. I thought that was the reason Digi made these LE versions this way!

JvB

Digi makes it more difficult for the non-technically inclined to lock to video, but yes, it will lock. Here's a time where a master clock device is actually useful beyond the current marketing fashion and/or creating pleasing distortions. Will it lock with sub-sample accuracy every time? Who cares? It's just video. 1/30th of a second is all you need. Dont take a pair of sync'ed LE boxes and put one side of a stereo pair on each box and you'll be fine.

To maintain sync, you need a positional reference and a speed reference. If you have a house sync generator, you send the same reference (black burst) to the video machines and the master clock device (Rosenthal has black built in), and just clock the PTLE box with the digital input. Everything is now referencing the same sync. You have no SMPTE input in LE, so you'll have to use midi time code or plug your SMPTE into your midi interface, but that will function just fine for your positional reference.

[Remoteness]

Jay, do you feel confident that PT LE will stay sync'd to video especially when the program may be more than an hour?

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Jay, do you feel confident that PT LE will stay sync'd to video especially when the program may be more than an hour?

I've seen it stay tight for extended periods, and technically it makes sense as everything is seeing the same sync reference, so I'd feel pretty confident that it would be fine for an hour or more if you have the right peripherals. However, a live gig is not the best place to test it for the first time. I'd give it a dry run before going to the gig to be sure. It requires some additional equipment, (even so, it's still cheaper than an HD rig) and there are always variables that you may not be expecting when dealing with complex setups of unfamiliar gear.

I know a couple composers and sound designers who use LE systems in this way (and were quite happy to find out it was possible) and I've done it myself in the past when a TDM system was not available. If you're feeding everything from a common reference, there's no reason it shouldn't stay locked.

Famous last words...

[Remoteness]

I beg to differ...


I've used TDM systems during (long form) video shoot environments that worked flawlessly under test conditions but, failed on location for one reason or another. On this one particular video shoot our tests were solid in the field shop; the system worked great on the setup & rehearsal day but, bagged us on the shoot day. Thank goodness we had a DTRS backup running...

I suggested we run a DTRS backup to the TDM system. I didn't feel comfortable with the TDM system as the only multi-track recording device. The guest recording engineer didn't want the backup. He said it never failed before so, it wasn't a necessary expense. I told him I wouldn't do the live video shoot unless we backup the TDM system with another type of media.

...After the show we spent about another hour or two dubbing the missing 20 seconds when the system dumped. It happened to be on one the artists hit songs.

IMO, I cannot imagine using a PT LE system on any of my important (mission critical) live projects unless it was tested ahead of time for a number of times. Then I would use it as my third backup. Plus. the client would have to "sign off" on it too!

For me, confidence is not high -- Just because it may technically make sense doesn't mean it's the most logical approach. Again, this is my opinion.

Feeling lucky? Then go for it! More famous last words.

[StefanM]

Thank you all for the great answers!

So in theory I could use my BigBen to clock VTR, SSD, and 002R and it should stay sync.

In fact I can not do it because video is coming from an OB-Van far from the FOH
and what is more this is indeed very "mission critical". (A major German-US car brand presenting their top of the line limousine to the press on the IAA)

Have a good day,

Stefan

[audioez]

ProTools LE and SYNC

NO BUENO!!!

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

IMO, I cannot imagine using a PT LE system on any of my important (mission critical) live projects unless it was tested ahead of time for a number of times. Then I would use it as my third backup. Plus. the client would have to "sign off" on it too!

Honestly I wouldn't trust a TDM or LE system or any DAW as the only or even primary recorder for a live gig. In post it's fine 'cause any crashes, freezes, freak-outs etc. don't sink the ship. We have a PTHD rig available for the truck and wiring in place, but we would only use it at the request of a client. The HD24XRs have been working for us. Still, LE can sync if you need it to and have the required peripherals. It just isn't something you should bet your life on under fire.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

Honestly I wouldn't trust a TDM or LE system or any DAW as the only or even primary recorder for a live gig.

I would trust some of the more expensive ones like Fairlight, AMS audiofile, RADAR.
I know people who have used those systems to record hours worth of material for Live shows.

A non-standalone system? Not withotu a backup.
If it has to be multitrack, get a standalonbe box desgned to do one thing.
Otherwise a time code dat, or similar.

[mspence@mac.com]

"On this one particular video shoot our tests were solid in the field shop; the system worked great on the setup & rehearsal day but, bagged us on the shoot day. Thank goodness we had a DTRS backup running... "

Hi Steve,

Uh, I think I was with you on that shoot...:-( I agree with you on running a backup, and I'm looking into a couple of the Tascam, Mackie, or Alesis HD24 recorders to do just that. But on the issue of PT HD being solid, I have great faith in it. The only trouble I've ever had with it and SMPTE, was when I was resolving to TC supplied by someone else. PT would just simply jump out of record and park. It would take right off again and be fine after I hit record again. Of course, that's unacceptable on any count, but it does require clean incoming time code, and the problem has never occured when I was being supplied proper house sync from a source that wasn't somewhere in the next city block, or being daisy-chained all over the venue before it got to me. If I'm not getting a home run feed from my own dedicated output from the master sync device, I just print it to an audio track and let them know that the money they saved by not having proper house sync will be paid in post....:-) Sorry it took so long for me to pop up on the forum!

Later,

Michael Spence