Recording Jazz duo: electric guitar and sax

[bradley]

I'm going to be recording a jazz duo next week consisting of electric guitar and sax. Location will be the sax players living room which I believe is a victoria house with high ceilings and I'm told it is quite a nice sounding room.

At the moment I'm thinking about a spot mic on the amp, a spot mic on the sax and a stereo pair further away. Options are Rode NT55 pair, Beyer MC930 pair, Brauner Phantom and M-audio Sputnik.

At the moment I'm thinking Beyer or Rode pair (XY, ORTF or maybe Spaced Omni) Brauner on the Sax, and whatever is left over on the guitar amp. This will be multitracked for mixing later and is only for demo purposes. I think the spot mics will have to make up most of the sound but that kind of depends on how the room sounds.

If anyone has any advice or thoughts then please share!

Thanks
Bradley

[Daniel Stark]

I have done lots of playing and some recording in this combo. I just use a pair (have done XY with ADK TL and gotten great results, use foam behind for some reflections but that's just me)

Spacey/ethereal sound, not traditional jazz quartet, so think accordingly.....Simple presentation with accurate and crisp tone/stereo image and intimate sound would be my goal.

I would set up the stereo mics first (mc930 in ortf or xy, and maybe brauner and sputnik in m/s for variety but either pair should be sufficient). go as close as you can to get a wide spread and dry intimate sound without distortion, almost like spot micing the duo with a stereo pair. This is my technique but go with your gut if you want to start with spots. Don't forget that a widebody guitar is an acoustic instrument that should be considered in addition to the amp, there is some finger on the strings and wood sound.

Little tweaks to the room, move the couches away from the walls, listen closely to find anything that may be rattling/buzzing with certain frequencies.

The important questions are, where are your players standing (and the amp), how can you make the amp and guitar sound best (reverb/tube/chair or foam/something to help with buzz if necessary) and let the sax player feel that he can/needs to really project (in a living room this can be tough, using isolation headphones for the cats might actually help here since tenor in a living room can be BOOMY. although in general i shy away from headphones)

Make sure you know in advance what stereo image you are going for, either by having some guide recordings in mind (listening with headphones as well to get an idea of the stereo placement) or checking out the players beforehand so you can imagine it.

Good luck!! Hope this advice is helpful and not obvious or pedantic. I am doing a similar session next week so we can compare notes.

[bradley]

Thanks for the reply Daniel,

I think trying out the Brauner with the Sputnik in MS is a good idea. Am quite keen on trying that along with the Beyer Pair. I could then use the remaining NT55's as spot mics just in case!

I think I'll need to order some more microphone stands as I might want to use a couple to hold up some acoustic tiles or a duvet!

Will be good to compare notes.

[Uncle Russ]

Since you will be recording jazz and not chamber music, I would simply put the most appropriate mic on each instrument and leave it at that. Using an additional stereo pair for ambiance won't hurt but may not help significantly, either.

Jazz traditionally mics each instrument. Rightly or wrongly, most listeners have the expectation of that more intimate, less ambient sound.

[bradley]

Think it might also depend on the quality of the room. I'm going to plan to use spot mics and a stereo pair just to be safe but I wont really know what the room is like till I get there on the day. I really love the Brauner Phantom but one of the problems using that as a spot is the not so tight Cardiod pattern. It tends to pick up quite a bit or room and the other performers in that room!

[Daniel Stark]

Yep, what Uncle Russ says is true. I think my answer should be considered more a way of thinking outside the box, in response to what could be avant-garde music (emphasis on space, silence, and spontaneous interaction). You CAN get plenty intimate with a pair of mics close to the band. It's only 2 pieces so your stereo pair can be in almost as close as a spot mic would be.

I don't really understand the need for different approaches to different categories of acoustic music. It seems more important to deal with the individual approach of the group-----tenor/guitar duo may have more in common sonically with modern chamber music than with classic jazz. I would ask to check out their CD or charts to get a read on the group.


PS my session is later on today.....Snuck up on me!!! I am going to plug in the sf-24 and call it a day.....Might be better off with a pair of cards but the stereo mic is addicting!!! and the ribbon just sucks up the sax and guitar......Not even thinking about a close mic. Maybe I can post a file by tomorrow so you can see what I am talking about.

[Daniel Stark]

ORTF is actually what I used before with good results, not XY. Sorry for the confusion.

[bradley]

Daniel,

I'd love to hear some samples. How did the recording go?

[Daniel Stark]

We actually postponed the recording to squeeze in a couple of rehearsals.

Will be doing it in the next week or two for sure though.

[bradley]

Daniel, have you done the recording yet?

I recorded the duo a couple of weeks ago and it went well. I haven't put any audio samples online but I put a video up on youtube. Best to watch in HD!



I ended up using the Brauner on the sax, m-audio solaris on the small guitar amp and ortf pair of Beyer mc930. I have used mostly the close mics for the mix and just added a touch of reverb.

[Daniel Stark]

Still rehearsing and getting tunes ready.....Taking a little extra time to make sure it comes out good. Got a room set up though (actually using the Climate theater in SF which is a fun space and very quiet) and the dates are tentatively Tuesday and Friday in the last week of May.

[henryrobinett]

Bradley -- you never indicated what SAX it was you were recording. It's a little bug of mine, since not all saxes are the same. I can see it was a soprano? Tenor too or just a soprano. I'd treat the soprano and altos far differently, mic'ing -wise than a tenor.

Glad it went well!

[bradley]

Henry,

I actually didn't know it would also be soprano and thought we would only be recording tenor. This was the only track they wanted to do with soprano.

How would you personally approach the two? I found some adjustment of mic position was needed for the soprano but not by much. Having said that, this is the first time I've recorded sax so I'd love to know how other people would approach the two!

Bradley

[Daniel Stark]

Yeah I am curious about this as well......I think the main factor is the bells pointing in opposite directions.......Although that is not the only source of sound (sound comes from the whole horn I believe) it gives the lower notes a distinctive sound in both cases. Tenor actually seems like it would be easier to find a spot to get both bell and upper register tone balanced. Soprano I might try a mic angled slightly upwards and a little lower than the tenor mic, or something with a more open pattern.

I don't have a lot of mics, so I just try a bright condenser and a dark one and go with whichever.

[henryrobinett]

Tenor does best, in my opinion, with a warm condenser, like a U47 type. Alto and soprano benefit greatly from ribbons because they can be harsh and high end-y. Sometimes, depending upon the player and the style, a ribbon is just too muffled and too soft for a tenor, which can be softer anyway, or less harsh.

I like to position the mic about 3 feet in front, keys rather than the bell. But experiment. Different areas expose different sounds, of course.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by bradley

Daniel, have you done the recording yet?

I recorded the duo a couple of weeks ago and it went well. I haven't put any audio samples online but I put a video up on youtube. Best to watch in HD!



I ended up using the Brauner on the sax, m-audio solaris on the small guitar amp and ortf pair of Beyer mc930. I have used mostly the close mics for the mix and just added a touch of reverb.

Nice! I like the tune, and the playing/feel is good, esp. for young'ish' guys.

I like the detail from the Brauner, but - the soprano's key clacks are a bit much and somewhat distracting. IMO, this is a main reason I lean towards ribbon mics (4038/4040/SF-1 etc.) for this instrument: totally takes the edge off of the mechanical noises, and has such a full-bodied sound for an otherwise anemic sounding instrument.

Nice gtr tone - is that the amp baffled off behind them? Did you use any of the stereo pr. mixed in?

Lastly, I assume that was a 2 camera shoot? Very good idea - I might have to start incorporating ideas like that for sessions, it just makes too much sense not to!

Great job!

[bradley]

I used an ORTF pair of Beyer MC930 which I have mixed in a little with the close mics. The small guitar amp was mic'ed with an M-Audio Solaris and I screened it off using some pieces of acoustic foam. It helped to reduce the bleed between the two.

I'd love to try a ribbon on the sax sometime but the Brauner and the Solaris were all I had with me at the time! The Brauner worked better on Tenor I think but perhaps a little too bright on the soprano. I could perhaps have moved it a bit lower to reduce the key noise.

If I end up keeping the Lauten Clarion I've got on loan then I'll try that sometime in figure of 8 on the sax as it sounds like a ribbon mic with that pattern selected!

[Daniel Stark]

Just finished the first day of recording yesterday..... Definitely a Murphy's law type of day

First off the venue we were going to record at, while it sounded good acoustically, was bleeding street noise. Last recordings I did there at night-time, and with a bigger band, this was not an issue BUT here the silence was critical. Without enough time or blankets to deal with the windows, we decided to relocate to my own living room (cathedral ceilings that top off at about 15 feet).

Panels and blankets in place, mic check everything is cool, and then the guitar amp began to make an undesirable noise..... Luckily we were able to borrow a nice amp from a friend and get back to it fairly quickly.

Ended up using spot mics, which I hadn't planned but they added a lot (Seemed tough to find a spot where the SF-24 could pick up both instruments with enough bite and top end). The final mix ended up about 50/50 with the Royer in m/s, mostly mid, and the spot mics in cardioid panned hard L/R.

Will post some files after we finish stuff up today

[bradley]

Look forward to hearing those samples Daniel!

[Daniel Stark]

hopefully this uploaded....

edit: trying to get the gs server to let me load a .wav? seems like it just hangs. any ideas?

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Daniel Stark

hopefully this uploaded....

edit: trying to get the gs server to let me load a .wav? seems like it just hangs. any ideas?

Just make sure it's under the available size limit (I think it's 10 MB if I'm not mistaken?!?)

cheers,

[Daniel Stark]

oh yeah, that was more like 55 MB. mp3 i guess...